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  • Determining Spousal Support questions.

    Hi- for 7 years looking after my boy I worked out of the home part-time or not at all.Married for 10.

    I reviewed the On-Gov SS guidelines-did a bit of math & it was almost double what i thought Id ask.As I had intended to live off half of our assets until I'm back fully in my career field.

    We have agreed to joint custody..I'm freelance..
    It may take 3-5 yrs to match my spouses income..I'm just judging by the fact that I put myself back in the workforce a year ago-resumes etc..accepting as much as I could..I only made 1/8th of what she makes...but if I work hard enough I'm hoping things will accelerate...

    I'm just wondering have people here used financial advisers /accountants/number crunchers to determine this stuff..and also how to scale it back as i make more income?

    are there any calculation methods that I may have missed outside of the basic gov. one? on-offline?

    Thanks
    M

  • #2
    Originally posted by mgforums View Post
    ...
    It may take 3-5 yrs to match my spouses income...I only made 1/8th of what she makes...
    If your career was limited by the relationship, and hers not, then that is what SS is for. I don't see the relevance of how much she makes compared to you, except perhaps in determining how much of the reduced income from your career she can compensate you for while you work to reinstate your career.

    Why are you relating your income to hers? What does her income level have to do with yours? It does not make sense to me that you need SS if you don't make the same income - how much you make is determined by you and your skill etc. How much less you make then you could make as a result of the marriage is what is important.
    Last edited by billm; 04-07-2009, 02:48 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      billm.Thanks for your reply.
      Yes-I was limited & her salary went up...and she did further training(paid for by company). However Im not quite seeing the point you are trying to make...(?)

      I was thinking of the equation (
      Gross Income Difference ) I got from the Spousal Support Advisory Guidelines so I can narrow down what is fair for both of us..and..it may not be the only method ...

      For example(from a related document):

      - Calculate the Gross Income Difference
      ($76,000 - $25,000 = $51,000)

      - Determine the applicable percentage (1.5 - 2% x years of
      marriage)
      1.5% x 8 years = 12%
      2 % x 8 years = 16%

      - Calculate the range
      Between 12% x $51,000 = $6,120 per year ($510 per
      month
      )
      And 16% x $51,000 = $8,160 per year ($680 per month)

      - Calculate duration (.5 - 1 x years of marriage [ if 20+ years
      will be indefinite])



      Comment


      • #4
        If you and your ex are drawing up the agreement on your own, then I would look at the expenses that need to be paid until you can get back on your feet and determine SS that way. You had mentioned that this amount would be less than what the SSAG suggest as you could live off half your assets.

        If you and your ex are on amicable terms, I would suggest you both check with a financial advisor as to the ramifications of living off assets vs. having your ex provide SS. There are designations specific to being a financial advisor specializing in divorce; two websites may be of assistance in finding such an advisor: New and http://www.institutedfa.com.

        Interview the financial advisor carefully; you want someone who will be objective (if this is possible) and not take sides. Personally, I would avoid anyone who feels he/she has been taken advantage of by the system and is looking to "right a wrong".

        Comment


        • #5
          Just a follow up to my previous post... here's an article from a paper touting itself as Canada's newspaper for financial advisors: Investment Executive : When clients divorce

          Comment


          • #6
            My point was that the SSAG calculator should be used if you can't determine how much your career suffered. If you can determine the monetary damage to your career as a result of the marriage, then your ex should cover a portion of the damage (not all!) to your income, until a reasonable time for you to repair the damage, if that is possible.

            SSAG does income splitting which to me sounds like marriage, but the marriage is over, and each person should now become responsible for themselves. So just looking at your two incomes and then doing some formula to split the income up to me is not a fair way to do it if you can determine career damage or career improvement that was a DIRECT result of the marriage. Call me crazy, but if you were lucky to marry someone who makes more than you, the deal is over when the marriage is over. You benefitted from her income while married, but now that benifit is over - you should just deal with anything that happened as a result of the marriage (if that is possible), and not go looking to share in the income that has nothing to do with you. That is the way I look at it anyway. Marriage is not an insurance policy, when the marriage is over, so is the benefits that go with it, and the two people should be 100% responsible for their own financial health. Now in some cases, long marriage, etc, there is an undeterminable or permanent damage to ones career, or a permanent improvement to ones career (that was a result of the union), and in that case income sharing based on current and future incomes makes sense.

            Comment


            • #7
              My background is in accounting so here is my oppinion. I think it would be best to leaving calculations up to the lawyers or courts. Those in my industry are better equipped to help you invest etc than to tell you what you should pay or recieve. yes we play with numbers but there is nothing binding in my opinion on this. I just think the courts would be better as they have assumed this responsibility to calculate it proper. Most lawyers have or have access to computerized programs that make calculating this easy. Also what they have to say is going to be more credible in the courts eyes if this ever is an issue.

              Comment


              • #8
                Bill-thanks again-I can see the various points you are making in general,
                however contradictory.

                I don't think you are crazy-maybe what you stated is true in your case.

                From my perspective money & luck are not the cornerstones of marriage.It's an agreement to support each others life in an honest and open way.Which obviously hasn't worked out in my case.Although that is what we originally intended to happen.But like I said that's just my perspective.

                Anyways as much as I appreciate your feed-back I posted questions more
                as to find out 'how' to calculate-not as to whether I am entitled or not.

                M

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mgforums View Post
                  Bill-thanks again-I can see the various points you are making in general,
                  however contradictory.
                  Could you point out the contradiction you are referring to?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    SSAG calculator should be used if you can't determine how much your career suffered
                    the above sounds to me like you are saying use it if...so in other words you think it's feasible...(in some cases).

                    (According to courts of law you need not have an accurate financial sum of what you think you may have lost career-wise or to ask for or claim SS ..its not that cut & dry-a lawyer or finance adviser would obviously present a figure..there are many factors a court would look at..see links below).


                    and the below sounds like you are saying in fact you don't believe in it
                    as fair tool...or for that matter it sounds like you are saying either party
                    has the right to cut their losses.

                    SSAG does income splitting which to me sounds like marriage, but the marriage is over, and each person should now become responsible for themselves
                    here are a few brief articles from lawyers pages-which give a more in depth idea of what may or may not be judged.
                    Ontario Spousal Support Obligations

                    Woodbridge Family Lawyer explains the Ontario Laws regarding Spousal Support.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No contradiction - my position is to use SSAG if you can't figure out loss / gain to career as a result of marriage or perhaps if there is permenent loss / gain to career. Otherwise, deal with the numbers (gains/loss) as with any financial relationship.

                      Either way, as long as SS is a means to an end of a financial link (in most cases, there are always reasonable exceptions), then it is valid, otherwise it is just welfare. IMHO.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Either way, as long as SS is a means to an end of a financial link (in most cases, there are always reasonable exceptions), then it is valid, otherwise it is just welfare. IMHO.
                        Welfare? Have you / are you having personal experience in the area of spousal support? Maybe you could share that here if so.

                        That way it might add substance to your comments.

                        M

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have posted my situation in a few of my posts. Search for posts by me and you can read it there. Basically though, my ex and I agreed to a fairly simple SS which was based on damage to her career as she stayed home with the kids. Now she is back at her career, after some reschooling which we paid for out of our marital assets, and in our case, it was very easy to determine (within reason) how much less she is making because of our decision for her to stay home. So I pay her a portion (relative to our current incomes) to compensate her for that loss - we both are paying for the loss, I pay more because I make more. Every year that payment goes down as she should be making more money. If she does not make more, or she makes more than we thought, or the same for me, the SS does not change from what we agreed it would because our future is independent and our agreement is based on what happened in our marriage, not what will happen after. That is my situation, but the main thing for us is that it really was easy to reasonably guess at the damage to her career. How much I make is only important for CS and for what portion of her reduced income I take part in relative to her.

                          Now my comment about welfare was simply to convey that without a real world connection to the need to support yourself completely (ie if you fail to make a decent living for yourself, you suffer financially) a person can sometimes take advantage of the other in that they don't have the same incentive as a single person for example to be self sufficient.
                          Last edited by billm; 04-08-2009, 10:25 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by billm View Post
                            I have posted my situation in a few of my posts. Search for posts by me and you can read it there. Basically though, my ex and I agreed to a fairly simple SS which was based on damage to her career as she stayed home with the kids. Now she is back at her career, after some reschooling which we paid for out of our marital assets, and in our case, it was very easy to determine (within reason) how much less she is making because of our decision for her to stay home. So I pay her a portion (relative to our current incomes) to compensate her for that loss - we both are paying for the loss, I pay more because I make more. Every year that payment goes down as she should be making more money. If she does not make more, or she makes more than we thought, or the same for me, the SS does not change from what we agreed it would because our future is independent and our agreement is based on what happened in our marriage, not what will happen after. That is my situation, but the main thing for us is that it really was easy to reasonably guess at the damage to her career. How much I make is only important for CS and for what portion of her reduced income I take part in relative to her.

                            Now my comment about welfare was simply to convey that without a real world connection to the need to support yourself completely (ie if you fail to make a decent living for yourself, you suffer financially) a person can sometimes take advantage of the other in that they don't have the same incentive as a single person for example to be self sufficient.
                            very good post and points

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by billm View Post
                              Marriage is not an insurance policy, when the marriage is over, so is the benefits that go with it, and the two people should be 100% responsible for their own financial health.
                              You've hit the nail on the head with this statement!

                              Comment

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