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"self-represented litigants are increasingly being ordered to pay, and pay big"

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  • #16
    You can have the best lawyer or the worst lawyer it doesnt matter. One of the biggest impacts in family law are the litigants. Case in point, my partner. He and his ex wife had great lawyers. His ex didnt want to take her lawyers advice and screwed herself. My partner had a barracuda and he wanted to be "reasonable". In the end she tells people he "stole everything" and hes dealing with the consequences of trying to play fair. On the other hand I have a friend who is divorced and she and her ex are not each others biggest fans. She has tried to be reasonable and put the kids first. They work together quite well when it comes to the kids because they both love their kids. Outside of that, he is an ass and she ignores him.

    It would be interesting to see if self reps being forced to pay are doing so because of their behaviour or actual legal losses. And also what percentage of the legal losses are because of their attitude or refusal to adhere to the rules of the court. Look at it this way, some litigants could have great lawyers giving them the best advice but if they choose to not follow that advice and end up paying via contempt, custody loss, additional court fees etc, its the same as a self rep losing. The self rep just saves the massive legal bills.

    You cant always blame the lawyer!

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    • #17
      ....hmmmm, any chance you are being biased here i.e. taking sides? I mean your friend probably isn't telling you everything, and you put blinders on as to what might be happening behind closed doors when she deals with her ex.

      You called the guys an "ass", your friend might just be a wench

      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
      You can have the best lawyer or the worst lawyer it doesnt matter. One of the biggest impacts in family law are the litigants. Case in point, my partner. He and his ex wife had great lawyers. His ex didnt want to take her lawyers advice and screwed herself. My partner had a barracuda and he wanted to be "reasonable". In the end she tells people he "stole everything" and hes dealing with the consequences of trying to play fair. On the other hand I have a friend who is divorced and she and her ex are not each others biggest fans. She has tried to be reasonable and put the kids first. They work together quite well when it comes to the kids because they both love their kids. Outside of that, he is an ass and she ignores him.

      It would be interesting to see if self reps being forced to pay are doing so because of their behaviour or actual legal losses. And also what percentage of the legal losses are because of their attitude or refusal to adhere to the rules of the court. Look at it this way, some litigants could have great lawyers giving them the best advice but if they choose to not follow that advice and end up paying via contempt, custody loss, additional court fees etc, its the same as a self rep losing. The self rep just saves the massive legal bills.

      You cant always blame the lawyer!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by hopefull View Post
        ....hmmmm, any chance you are being biased here i.e. taking sides? I mean your friend probably isn't telling you everything, and you put blinders on as to what might be happening behind closed doors when she deals with her ex.

        You called the guys an "ass", your friend might just be a wench
        It's also possible that the guys an ass. Rockscan is anything but biased .. trust me.

        Comment


        • #19
          I had a fantastic lawyer for 6 years until end of litigation (or so I had hoped) in 2015. My ex took me back to court this year and I successfully represented myself.

          I am currently out of the province and was just alerted by my old lawyer that my ex is scheduled for a motion today. I was not given any notice of this application by my ex. My ex-lawyer happened to notice the name on the docket this morning. Fortunately my ex-lawyer is going to represent me today. Won't my ex be surprised haha.

          I cannot say enough about hard-working, dedicated lawyers.

          Comment


          • #20
            I see several main issues with the Family Court system.
            1. It's designed by lawyers to do things the lawyer way. This leaves out everyone else who isn't a lawyer. It's an old boys (and girls) club and outsiders aren't welcome.
            2. Win or loose, the lawyer gets paid. The longer things drag out, the more both lawyers benefit. Loose the case, you still get paid.
            3. Lawyer's who game the system are difficult to catch. Everything is subjective. I imagine (I'm not an expert) that a lawyer has to very blatantly screw up to be scanctioned.

            Given the risks and rewards for an overly zealous or unscrupulous lawyer, it's no surprise that things turn out the way they do.

            I'm not ignoring bad behaviour by the other participants, but the system as it is only encourages longer trials and bad behaviour.

            Comment


            • #21
              If you say so.....we just have to take the words that we read online for what they are worth

              Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
              It's also possible that the guys an ass. Rockscan is anything but biased .. trust me.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by hopefull View Post
                If you say so.....we just have to take the words that we read online for what they are worth
                Yea ... That's usually the toughest part with these forums. Trust me about Rock she's good peoples.

                Comment


                • #23
                  ....words to live by, "trust me"

                  Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
                  Yea ... That's usually the toughest part with these forums. Trust me about Rock she's good peoples.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    It's designed by lawyers to do things the lawyer way. This leaves out everyone else who isn't a lawyer. It's an old boys (and girls) club and outsiders aren't welcome.
                    Yes, the courts are evolved from their historical origins where only lawyers could make arguments.

                    The family courts are (and continue to) evolving to be more user friendly. Nonetheless, procedure is important to ensure fairness of process.

                    It beats a system where everyone brings their kids to court and whoever they walk to first gets custody - even if that system would be faster and cheaper.

                    Win or loose, the lawyer gets paid. The longer things drag out, the more both lawyers benefit. Loose the case, you still get paid.
                    Win or lose - because the lawyer did the work. It is only 30% of cases that are won (or lost) by the lawyer. Sometimes bad lawyers win cases they have bungled because the judge sees what is fair; or good lawyers lose cases for clients who have unreasonable positions.

                    Again, as a matter of history, all barristers have an obligation to take on their client's case and represent them well. If the lawyer believes they will go down in flames the client should be aware of the risk (or almost-certainty, depending). Ultimately the decision falls to the party since it is their life to live.

                    There are many examples of legal fees that appear excessive. There are many examples of lawyers who have done good work for little remuneration. Examples could be found for most professions.

                    Lawyer's who game the system are difficult to catch. Everything is subjective. I imagine (I'm not an expert) that a lawyer has to very blatantly screw up to be scanctioned.
                    Some lawyers are not very good. There are incompetent individuals in every field. Do some research before hiring a lawyer and seek out a second (or third) opinion at the start and again in the middle. People take hours to research their new car - why not put the same thought and care into hiring a lawyer?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by OrleansLawyer View Post
                      People take hours to research their new car - why not put the same thought and care into hiring a lawyer?
                      Hey!!! Now you're stepping onto MY profession.

                      Ask me to define jurisprudence, habias corpus, mens reas and actus reas...
                      ...along with a host of other Latin words and I'm lost. Oops, modis operandi is "method of operation" isn't it?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        If you are a bad client and an idiot no matter how good your lawyer is your case is lost.

                        In fact, very good lawyers are good lawyers because they can smell a bad client from a mile away. Judges get to know these "good lawyers" because they have a history of not bringing nutbars into the court room. Other lawyers will take any stupid argument forward.

                        Comment

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