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  • denying access?

    So now my ex has decided he is going to move to the family cottage for the summer. This is all fine and dandy and the kids like to go up but he is refusing to drive back with them - he keeps saying, just pick them up when you come up (my mother's cottage is 20 minutes from theirs). Problem is, I don't want to go up this weekend. His solution is to get my SIL to drop them off but I have a lot of problems with that (she sleeps til noon everyday so I won't get them back til 10 at night, she interferes with my access arrangements, etc.) Plus he has the internet over the phone up there so it is hard to get ahold of him.
    I am so tired of his nonsense i am going to start a court action (with or without my lawyer, who is on vacation and has this far been useless). My question is, is this considered denying access on his part (refusing to transport them back)? I have been told by my lawyer I cannot deny him access, and the kids want to go, so I am letting them go, but he shouldn't be going and saying he isn't coming back.

  • #2
    Originally posted by gumby View Post
    So now my ex has decided he is going to move to the family cottage for the summer. This is all fine and dandy and the kids like to go up but he is refusing to drive back with them - he keeps saying, just pick them up when you come up (my mother's cottage is 20 minutes from theirs). Problem is, I don't want to go up this weekend. His solution is to get my SIL to drop them off but I have a lot of problems with that (she sleeps til noon everyday so I won't get them back til 10 at night, she interferes with my access arrangements, etc.) Plus he has the internet over the phone up there so it is hard to get ahold of him.
    I am so tired of his nonsense i am going to start a court action (with or without my lawyer, who is on vacation and has this far been useless). My question is, is this considered denying access on his part (refusing to transport them back)? I have been told by my lawyer I cannot deny him access, and the kids want to go, so I am letting them go, but he shouldn't be going and saying he isn't coming back.

    Sorry but I do not see how he's denying you access, you can pick them up but won't, he's offered another transport option but do not like that. If it were me, for the 20 min difference I'd pick them up.

    What does your order say? I mean you have transportation available by the sounds of things. Usually the person taking the children into their care is responsible for pick up. Would be the same for him, when your access is over, he would be responsible to pick them up.

    If he was refusing to hand over the children, then that would be considered denying access, but from what I've read in your post/question, you just do not like the arrangements. If his SIL is the option, then request that you have them at a reasonable time.

    Maybe there are others here that can better help you on this one, but I'm thinking for the 20 min or this one time when you do not want to go to the cottage, just have your SIL bring them down.

    Comment


    • #3
      What is your normal arrangement for pick-ups and drop-offs? He should abide by this. Meaning, if you pick up the kids from his house after his parenting time at a specific time, the children should be at his house at that time.

      However, he has suggested that he would allow his sister to transport the children to your house. You have no say in who HE allows to transport the children. If he chooses to allow a responsible adults to return the children as he is unable, then that is his choice to make.

      The only issue with his sister returning the children is your belief that they will be returned late at night (whether you like her or not is fluff and immaterial to question at hand). If the children are supposed to be returned to your care at a specified time (say 6pm), Dad should ensure that his sister is up and on the road in adequate time to return the kids to your care at the prescribed time.

      Comment


      • #4
        I assume by your post, that this is not the only issue that is problematic.

        If it is, then you are probably wasting your time with a court action, as by the time you see the inside of a courtroom, the summer will be over and it will be a moot point.

        I agree with the OP's... Dad is not refusing you access.

        Good Luck!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Does he have additional accesses during the summer while he is up there (or are you just splitting the summer in half)? If he does, then you might be splitting the driving i.e. he drives to the city to pick up the kids, you drive to the cottage to get them back.
          It's not nice, but I think he has you over a barrel on this one, and not much you can do about it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Sorry, I did not make this clear enough.
            Both cottages are 2.5 hours away from the children's home. The cottages are 20 minutes apart, not my house and his cottage. What he wants me to do is make a round trip of 5 hours to get them if I am not visiting my mother that weekend (which i will not be). i have pointed out to him that this is unfair but he refuses to even meet me halfway.
            My SIL will not be "on the road" anytime she does not feel like it. She is retired and has not woken up before noon for many years and certainly will not do it to accommodate me. He will not even ask her to do that and I am am not even sure she is coming back to town that day. Besides, they are his children, not hers so it is his responsibility.
            Basically he is saying wait to see your children until somebody comes back to town sometime, or drive for 5 hours. I think most people would see this as unreasonable at best, at worst a form of denial of access. I would not dream of asking him to do the same.
            We do not have an agreement in place which is why I am going to court, not to deal with this specific situation. I know with him to avoid it happening again he will have to be made to financially compensate me for gas/time.
            Thanks for your responses but I hope this makes it a little clearer.

            Comment


            • #7
              K so he is using his responsibility to get your kids to you by asking his sister, what is wrong with that?? He is not saying you cannot have the kids, has offered ways to make it easier but you refuse to budge. What you are going through is stuff that a lot of NCPs go through. Sometimes you just have to suck it up for a while. Once summer is over things will be back to normal. It sounds like you visit your mothers cottage alot, just not this weekend.

              How old are the kids?

              Comment


              • #8
                What would be fair is if he paid for your gas and possible time off work for one-way of the trip.

                It would also be fair if you adjusted the schedule, instead of having time each week, for example, have double the time every two weeks. That cuts the trips in half.

                You are each expected to provide transportation back and forth, it isn't just him, or just you. He has chosen to make it an increased trip, this should not be your expense, it could legitimatly be deducted from CS payments. But he is not denying access. There is a question of what is "easier" and you two disagree on that, and I'm sure he has his side. But "denying access" is far to strong a charge.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by gumby View Post
                  Sorry, I did not make this clear enough.
                  Both cottages are 2.5 hours away from the children's home. The cottages are 20 minutes apart, not my house and his cottage. What he wants me to do is make a round trip of 5 hours to get them if I am not visiting my mother that weekend (which i will not be). i have pointed out to him that this is unfair but he refuses to even meet me halfway.
                  My SIL will not be "on the road" anytime she does not feel like it. She is retired and has not woken up before noon for many years and certainly will not do it to accommodate me. He will not even ask her to do that and I am am not even sure she is coming back to town that day. Besides, they are his children, not hers so it is his responsibility.
                  Basically he is saying wait to see your children until somebody comes back to town sometime, or drive for 5 hours. I think most people would see this as unreasonable at best, at worst a form of denial of access. I would not dream of asking him to do the same.
                  We do not have an agreement in place which is why I am going to court, not to deal with this specific situation. I know with him to avoid it happening again he will have to be made to financially compensate me for gas/time.
                  Thanks for your responses but I hope this makes it a little clearer.
                  Okay, I stand by my 1st post. You say 2.5 hrs each way. Then say how you would have to drive 5 hours. If you read my 1st post you would see and also other posters have eluded to as well is that each parent is responsible for the transport when taking into children into their care.

                  So you would be responsible for your 2.5 hrs, then he is! Since you do not have an agreement, what has been the status quo? Sounds like the cottage for the summer is the norm and the children like that, so it's what's in the best interest of the children? Right?

                  I think for this one time that you've decided not to go to your mom's cottage that is 20 min apart, and since there is no agreement, I think you need to pick up your children, then he can pick them up when your time with them is over. There is also the option of his sister to bring them down, just make sure you voice your time concerns. But if by some chance they don't get home until 10pm at night then just tack the time on the other end of your access, let your ex know that is when he can pick them up.

                  If you want to know about denied access then I can tell you about a few of my experiences, or just read on this site, it will not take you long to see that what you're describing is not denied access.

                  I wouldn't make too big of a deal out of this, things can get a lot worse, I do not know you're situation, and not to make light of your concerns but really there are bigger fish to fry, your children like it up there, and they're having fun, not just with you, and it hurts, I know. They'll be better for it, especially of mom and dad are not fighting. If you're up there a lot then the times that this situation will occur will be considered an anomaly.

                  Anyway just my thoughts, good luck.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LostFather View Post
                    Okay, I stand by my 1st post. You say 2.5 hrs each way. Then say how you would have to drive 5 hours. If you read my 1st post you would see and also other posters have eluded to as well is that each parent is responsible for the transport when taking into children into their care.

                    So you would be responsible for your 2.5 hrs, then he is! Since you do not have an agreement, what has been the status quo?
                    I don't agree with this.

                    Yes, generally the parent responsible for taking care of the child for their parenting time would be responsible for pickups. However, Dad has choosen to leave the city and go to the cottage 2.5 hours away (thus a 5 hour round trip for mom), which I doubt is what would normally occur for access exchanges. Exchanges where each parent lives in the same town are generally at the other parents house or school.

                    The only important questions are:

                    1. Where have you normally done exchanges in the past?

                    - if you have normally done them at each others house or a neutral location local to each of you, that should be continued.

                    2. When are the children supposed to be returned to you?

                    - you made it sound like the children will be returned very late in the day (like after 8pm). When do you expect them home? generally access on Sunday ends after dinner time. So he should have at least until 6pm to return the kids. So even if SIL is lazy and doesn't roll outta bed until noon, that gives her 6 hours to get ready and make a 2.5 hour trip.

                    It would be unreasonable to cause mom to make a 5 hour round trip to pick up the children due to dad's decision to remain up at the cottage. If he wants spend time up there, he can either a) drive them down for the normal exchange and return afterwards or b) arrange for someone else to drop them off (which he has). It would be no different then a parent temporarily moving, which each of us responding have said on this site, the person doing the move would be responsible for doing the transportation.

                    As for the SIL, I really doubt you know all that goes on in her life and how responsible she may be. You have jaded views and expect the worst because of those views.

                    And yes, it is at worst inconsideratie to ask you to do the travelling. But it is not a denial of access as he has provided alternatives for return transportation (you just choose to look at the alternative in the worst possible fashion).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                      I don't agree with this.

                      Yes, generally the parent responsible for taking care of the child for their parenting time would be responsible for pickups. However, Dad has choosen to leave the city and go to the cottage 2.5 hours away (thus a 5 hour round trip for mom), which I doubt is what would normally occur for access exchanges. Exchanges where each parent lives in the same town are generally at the other parents house or school.

                      The only important questions are:

                      1. Where have you normally done exchanges in the past?

                      - if you have normally done them at each others house or a neutral location local to each of you, that should be continued.

                      2. When are the children supposed to be returned to you?

                      - you made it sound like the children will be returned very late in the day (like after 8pm). When do you expect them home? generally access on Sunday ends after dinner time. So he should have at least until 6pm to return the kids. So even if SIL is lazy and doesn't roll outta bed until noon, that gives her 6 hours to get ready and make a 2.5 hour trip.

                      It would be unreasonable to cause mom to make a 5 hour round trip to pick up the children due to dad's decision to remain up at the cottage. If he wants spend time up there, he can either a) drive them down for the normal exchange and return afterwards or b) arrange for someone else to drop them off (which he has). It would be no different then a parent temporarily moving, which each of us responding have said on this site, the person doing the move would be responsible for doing the transportation.

                      As for the SIL, I really doubt you know all that goes on in her life and how responsible she may be. You have jaded views and expect the worst because of those views.

                      And yes, it is at worst inconsideratie to ask you to do the travelling. But it is not a denial of access as he has provided alternatives for return transportation (you just choose to look at the alternative in the worst possible fashion).
                      HD, I would agree with you if it was expected she make both trips, but she is or would be only responsible for one trip, which agreed would be 5 hrs round, but he would have to do the same?? But he's offering to mitigate that by bringing the children to her. I would still tell him to pick the children up for his return access.

                      It sounds like this is a past practice for the children to goto the cottage for the summer, though I've asked similar questions that you've asked as well; like what is the normal regime? I haven't heard anything from mom with regards to this. From her post, it appears like this is a one time deal that she is not going to the cottage which is 20 min away from her ex. Having said all that, I've also stated to her that she require the children be home at a responsible time, whomever transports the children back!

                      Like in many orders (which it sounds like she doesn't have one) judges will throw out the regular access regime during the summer months when the children are not in school, like vacations, when the regular access times are thrown out to accommodate the vacations for both parents, not saying that is the case here, but going on just what I've read from the poster, the children going to the cottage for the summer is something that is the norm, and both parents need to help make that work and both parents have to share the transportation responsibility together. Meaning she only would have to do it once, not for his access time. He would have to do the same thing, if by chance he is able to get his sister, then if I were her, and didn't want to make the trip, then take it.

                      From what she has posted it sounds like this is a one off issue as she'd normally be at mom's cottage, maybe the poster can clarify.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LostFather View Post
                        From what she has posted it sounds like this is a one off issue as she'd normally be at mom's cottage, maybe the poster can clarify.
                        She may choose, at her discretion, to go to her parents cottage. She would not be obligated to travel such a distance because dad doesn't want to return the kids to his house (or their normal exchange spot).

                        The issue isn't that she has access to a cottage close to dads. That is just fluff and of no consequence as there may be a host of reasons why the OP cannot, or chose not, to attend her parents cottage (like another family member is using it or she has other commitments in the city).

                        Dad should return the kids to where they would normally exchange them. A court order will generally provide that exchanges happen at 1 of 2 places, the parents house or school.

                        All that said, dad has arranged for his sister to transport the kids. If mom doesn't like it, tough, it isn't your decision to make. So long as they are at the normal exchange point and the prescribed time you have no argument.

                        Dad has choosen to be 2.5 hours away this weekend. Why should mom be inconvenienced by dad's decision to be so far away? I mean, if he went to BC would we still expect her to get them? Is there a distance where we decide is the cutoff? Or do we go with what has been done in the past and put the onus on the person who is responsible for the change to provide the remedy (in this case, dad).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                          She may choose, at her discretion, to go to her parents cottage. She would not be obligated to travel such a distance because dad doesn't want to return the kids to his house (or their normal exchange spot).

                          The issue isn't that she has access to a cottage close to dads. That is just fluff and of no consequence as there may be a host of reasons why the OP cannot, or chose not, to attend her parents cottage (like another family member is using it or she has other commitments in the city).

                          Dad should return the kids to where they would normally exchange them. A court order will generally provide that exchanges happen at 1 of 2 places, the parents house or school.

                          All that said, dad has arranged for his sister to transport the kids. If mom doesn't like it, tough, it isn't your decision to make. So long as they are at the normal exchange point and the prescribed time you have no argument.

                          Dad has choosen to be 2.5 hours away this weekend. Why should mom be inconvenienced by dad's decision to be so far away? I mean, if he went to BC would we still expect her to get them? Is there a distance where we decide is the cutoff? Or do we go with what has been done in the past and put the onus on the person who is responsible for the change to provide the remedy (in this case, dad).

                          Some of this stuff you've raised and I as well, have been waiting for a response, if it has been past practice, and this is a one off, then I would think that both are responsible. I think as far as BC is concerned then that would be a hardship. If the parents have the means to do so and it's a matter of inconvenience and the above has been in practice, then I do not see the problem, I mean its not the children's fault mom and dad separated or divorced, and if this is normally what they do, I'm thinking that for the inconvenience issue; and that's what it is, not a hardship or doesn't have the means, is more like I don't want to. Isn't it?

                          I guess we need to poster to clarify some issues. In any event, the time will of come and gone and the issue will be long forgotten or most likely ignored by the courts (meaning and actions against the parent) when and if it gets to court. There maybe a chance to get something more concrete in place by next summer, but then you have a judge deciding, (spending thousands along the way) what they're both doing, and my guess is both will not like it and regret taking the matter to court instead of working out something together. But ahhhhh, don't we all!! LOL!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree, in court this one instance will be a moot issue. It will most likely be a one time issue, not a reoccuring problem, and will be settled with a judge saying exchanges are to occur at X place and Y time. So the kids shall be there.

                            And yeah, this is an inconvenience, but it is a 5 hour and a tank of gas inconvenience she didn't create (plus likely a meal etc). Unless this is what they have always done or agreed with previously, I know I wouldn't do it. And if my ex suggested I do so, I'd tell her to pound salt as I am not the one who created the problem and won't be responsible for fixing it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks for all your responses.

                              I know my SIL very,very well. It is not an issue of whether she is "responsible" or not but whether dropping off the kids is her responsibilty. It is not, she is perfectly within her rights to tell her brother she will not do it. He does not ask her ahead of time he "lays it on her"at the last minute. So she may not do this at all, never mind late. And I will get a phone call telling me i cannot see my kids, like i said, until somebody comes back.

                              It is unreasonable to ask the other parent to pick up from your vacation spot. My mother's cottage is hers, not mine, and I have no plans to go there this weekend and he knows that. Would it be reasonable for me to drive to a random town 2.5 hours away in any direction, spend the weekend there with the kids in a hotel, and tell him he had to pick them up there? I think not. Would you do that to your ex? Hope not.

                              We have only been separated 2 months so there is no "past practice for vacations. Normally he lives a 10 minute drive from me and we both do pickups and dropoffs.
                              Thanks for the support ( I mean that sincerely to all the supportive posters)

                              Comment

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