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  • #16
    Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
    Again- sometimes (a lot of times) I feel guilt because I have the resources to get good advice going into these things. My lawyer actually coached me on how to back up the claims I was making. E.g. when I explained the historical violence in our relationship- I explained that as a result I went to see a counselor when I was pregnant and my ex physically confronted me. My lawyer made sure I notified that counselor (that I saw almost 3 years ago)- and I signed a release so that the OCL clinician could speak with her and verify what I was saying was true. That simple step verified the timeline for the clinician.
    How does a clinician speaking to your counselor verify what you were saying to a counsellor is true? That is double hearsay at best.

    Why would any of that even be necessary if your ex has already supposedly admitted to your allegations ?

    Why do you feel guilty? Is it because you rigged up a domestic violence case to win over custody of your kids? Is that why you were so anxious when the OCL was investigating? Even more so when you were freaking out that the OCL was reading your OFW ?
    Last edited by tunnelight; 03-08-2019, 01:22 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
      How does a clinician speaking to your counselor verify what you were saying to a counsellor is true? That is double hearsay at best.

      Why would any of that even be necessary if your ex has already supposedly admitted to your allegations ?

      Why do you feel guilty? Is it because you rigged up a domestic violence case to win over custody of your kids? Is that why you were so anxious when the OCL was investigating? Even more so when you were freaking out that the OCL was reading your OFW ?


      But really- I'll answer because I think that in family law the use of the term abuse and domestic violence is problematic to prove- and not unlike #metoo- victims are forced time and time again to prove not only the allegations (which they should be doing in the family law context), but defend their character over and over and over again.

      If you've never been the victim of abuse, or known someone who is- it's hard to understand- I get that.

      Every time you want to apply the standard principles of family law to a case where there is abuse and violence- I think it's particularly hard- and it's a balancing act.

      Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
      How does a clinician speaking to your counselor verify what you were saying to a counsellor is true? That is double hearsay at best.
      It sets up a timeline that the violence and abuse were happening before the separation. That his threat to kill our daughter and kill me were not just a product of a really crappy time (separation and just before), but rooted in something more problematic.

      Why would any of that even be necessary if your ex has already supposedly admitted to your allegations ?
      Because the OCL was concerned with him understanding of the gravity of the situation- of the serious nature of the threats.

      Also- I'm guessing she had training in recognizing risk factors for intimate partner violence. Also- she probably wanted to make sure I wasn't fabricating a history of violence. She did the same thing when she spoke with my sister- she asked her specifically about WHEN I told my sister about the violence- when it really started escalating (when I was pregnant). She asked her why she (my sister) thought I went back, etc etc.

      Why do you feel guilty?
      Because it's really hard to leave an abusive relationship. I had the support of my family (financially as well as emotionally), the means to see a therapist weekly, and really understanding employer.

      EVEN with all of that- I went back twice when my ex became violent with me.

      Most victims don't have what I have. I feel guilt that I got out when many MANY other women don't. If you don't have a support system remind you to give your head a REAL hard shake- it's really easy to go back.


      Is it because you rigged up a domestic violence case to win over custody of your kids?
      No- I did not do that.

      Is that why you were so anxious when the OCL was investigating? Even more so when you were freaking out that the OCL was reading your OFW ?
      I was/am anxious because everyone is anxious with the OCL/ Assessor. If you say you're not it's either because you're lying or you're a narcissist.

      I was worried when I found out the OCL was reading our OFW message because in letting only my ex know our correspondence was being read she set up an appearance of bias in his favour. It worried me that she was buying his bullshit. Turns out- she wasn't.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        same boat here. felt same about assessor. don't take what Tayken says personally.
        I would recommend people review the attached materials that experienced posters provide in full and assess their situation, as only they can do, accordingly. In addition, I would also recommend that you don't take any advice from a public forum seriously. It is information. Ultimately the reader should be the judge of advice provided by anonymous people with fake names on the internet.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        That is a very stereotypical way to look at it. Tayken is suggesting that any parent who disagrees with an assessor and feels was wronged, is a high conflict parent.
        Actually, it isn't stereotypical by definition as I didn't present a "oversimplified" idea. I presented a point-of-view that relies on significant experience, research. I provided examples, highlighted the possible behaviour pattern being demonstrated by the OP and backed it up with a paper on the topic.

        A stereotypical answer would have been:

        "You are a HCP."

        I used knowledge, experience, and referenced outside information to support my hypothesis. It was a warning to the OP as to how their conduct and pattern of behaviour could be interpreted and was being interpreted.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Tayken does at times overuse the term high conflict to people who are upset at bias. We have already the right to be upset. No one was ever happy for being wronged.
        But, also Tayken has researched William Eddy's theory on HCPs and tries, to the best of his/her/z ability, to help people see themselves in the possible patterns and advises them to adjust their thinking.

        So he/she/z uses the term sparingly and understands that "bias" can lead someone to conduct themselves, even for a temporary period of time, in the patterns of an HCP. (https://www.amazon.ca/High-Conflict-.../dp/1936268000)

        Furthermore, he/she/z was identifying how the OP may be conducting themselves in this negative pattern of behaviour, how it could impact their case and then demonstrated (with evidence) how it could lead to more complexity further spiraling into elongated legal disputes... and additional costs as demonstrated in your paragraph below.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Don't waste your time using the assessor.
        Very sage advice.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Put your money and time in meeting with a critique and your lawyer to dismantle the biased report. Costed me about $6000 legal fees and $4000 critique fees, which lead to an interim order setting the ground for shared parenting and mediation, $3500 later for mediation and the assessment report was left to be the toilet paper that I use to wipe my ass that it always was.
        $6000 + $4000 + $3500 = $13,500

        It was a lot of money to dispute a report that... as the poster so elegantly puts it... was "toilet paper" that the poster used to "wipe his (my) ass" and it "always was" in fact "toilet paper".

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        How does the court actually find out about a complaint about assessors after the final order been issued ??
        They don't generally unless someone files another claim on a material change in circumstances because the conflict continues and they use the complaint as evidence to a pattern of behaviour of high conflict. That is how they find out about emails sent to the OCL after the FINAL order is made too.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Also, assessors, just like lawyers and judges, they pretty much all know each other and talk. You don't want to be that one guy they have warned each other about.
        A valid point to raise. It is a very close-knit community. There is a lot of backroom horse-trading that happens with Section 30 assessments. Professionals like to scratch each other's backs.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Follow the proper family court process to dispute the report. Speak to a critique. Fight the assessment report.
        Unfortunately, unlike the s.112 report that I am assuming was done in your matter tunnelight, the OP here doesn't have that option as:

        1. The OP had a Section 30 report done in accordance with Rule 30 of the CLRA.

        2. This is a private assessment and does not follow the same rules that an OCL report has. There is no dispute resolution in the court process other than motion or trial.

        3. OCL is ordered under s.112 of the Courts of Justice Act of Ontario.

        Excellent article that will help you understand the differences Tunnelight: https://shulman.ca/uncategorized/ocl...he-difference/

        https://shulman.ca/parenting/do-i-ne...30-assessment/

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        I assume you know what's best for your kids and you need to win the battle to ensure your child wins.
        If that was the case then why are they posting on this site? Pure entertainment value?

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        If you lose to the presumable assessment that is stripping you of custody and non-sexist access, your child loses.
        The assessor recommended 50-50 for one child and 60-40 for the other on a 2-2-5-5 schedule I believe. I wouldn't say this is a "sexist" or even terrible Section 30 report. The OP is disputing I believe 10% access. I also believe the assessor recommended joint custody. (I could be wrong, I generally have a heat map for each poster that outlines their story on this site but, I haven't turned it on for GreenGrass yet.)

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Good luck. Feel free to PM if you need reference to good critiques and sample of OCL dispute.
        Tunnelight, as stated above Section 30 is different than an OCL report. I recommend you read up on Section 30 before critiquing others replies on this site.

        Originally posted by tunnelight View Post
        Though I think if enough of us dads sued them and filed complaints about them then they may think twice about being biased.
        That was already done with the abolishment of the "tender years doctrine". A lot of expert witnesses, judges and lawyers relied heavily on it in the past for arguments. It was enshrined in law.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_years_doctrine

        You are better off spending your time working on getting the presumption of custody and access put into legislation.
        Last edited by Tayken; 03-09-2019, 09:55 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
          Every time you want to apply the standard principles of family law to a case where there is abuse and violence- I think it's particularly hard- and it's a balancing act.
          Yes, it is indeed hard. There really isn't a "standard" or "principals" on how to deal with allegations of violence (Rule 24.(4) of the CLRA). There needs to be but, then they are challenged and can lead to improper decisions. So, the best thing we have is individual analysis and rulings by judges.

          https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=16809

          Here is a view from the bench:

          [12] The difficulty with the term “abuse”, as it is used in affidavits filed in family law cases, is that it is used subjectively. It is an emotionally coloured term. It is not limited to describing physical violence but may be also be used to describe a range of conflicts including arguments, differences of opinion or values, or hurt feelings. For example, one partner may consider himself or herself as a good money manager while the other partner may perceive close budgeting as coercive control. One partner may consider an end-of-day inquiry about how the other spouse’s day went as an indication of love or interest while a disaffected spouse may deem the inquiry intrusive and controlling. CanLII - 2013 ONSC 6960 (CanLII)
          See the link above for a more detailed overview and an actual debate with the litigant identified as "health" in this matter. I draw this conclusion because the person using the handle "health" and the person in the matter who tried to use false allegations (and failed) is a medical doctor. You can see the pattern of behavior a false accusor uses. They want everyone in the world to believe their story. They will even come to an anonymous website to defend what they believe to be true.

          It is not at all similar to the pattern of behavior that an actual abuse victim demonstrates. It takes an incredibly talented lier to get past the courts these days with a false allegation of abuse. Unfortunately, too many cases settle out on the allegations whereby the accused is scared into bad EOW settlements. A presumption of joint custody and equal access could resolve this issue. But, the government (federal - divorce act and provincial) don't seem to care.

          Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
          It sets up a timeline that the violence and abuse were happening before the separation. That his threat to kill our daughter and kill me were not just a product of a really crappy time (separation and just before), but rooted in something more problematic.
          It is important to note that a single one-time occurrence won't meet the threshold though. This has to be a consistent pattern of behavior and repeated or even sustained over their timeline. The period of the timeline matters. That is where complexity lies.

          Root cause analysis is difficult and requires a very talented clinician to figure out. But, it is not for the court to do but, our system of health care. The binding between law and our health care system sucks. It needs to align closer. Almost integrated I say...

          Comment


          • #20
            https://www.advocatedaily.com/jennif...ettlement.html

            I wrote about this case and the OCL previously but, a good article that outlines the issues with "bad reports" creating unnecessary conflict.

            https://www.advocatedaily.com/jennif...ettlement.html

            Another very good article:

            https://www.lerners.ca/wp-content/up...dy-battles.pdf

            Comment


            • #21
              How debatable is a heat map? Isn’t that a way to look at numerical data how does that work with a discussion board?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by denbigh View Post
                How debatable is a heat map? Isn’t that a way to look at numerical data how does that work with a discussion board?
                I use a tool that does multi-dimensional sentiment analysis. I integrated it and a bunch of AI tooling that captures other elements of the content. I use a number of analytic APIs that I use to do this. It is a machine learning tool that I am building. I then create heat maps on the data that is captured from the forum. I also train it with a variety of different sources.

                Here is an article that talks about some of the tone analyzers etc...

                https://medium.com/@Mandysidana/top-...s-116cd8d42055

                Google's API on Sentiment Analysis:

                https://cloud.google.com/blog/produc...ition-features

                I don't want to give up too much information on what the project is as... it is in development. Ultimately the objective is to be able to input court records (say an entire continuing record) and provide the legal system with analytics regarding the materials filed.

                NLP and Text analytics is going to disrupt a lot of industries.

                While we’re still a long long way away from robot lawyers, the current organic crop of legal professionals are already taking advantage of NLP, text mining and text analysis techniques and technologies to help them make better-informed decisions, in quicker time, by discovering key insights that can often be buried in large volumes of data, or that may seem irrelevant until analyzed at scale, uncovering strategy-boosting and often case-changing trends.
                http://blog.aylien.com/nlp-text-anal...tomer-service/

                I am a hobbyist when it comes to this stuff... Message forums are vast unstructured collections of data that is easy to apply NLP to. So when people question why I am here... How I have insight on things... It isn't just my personal observation I rely upon.

                This has been known to long-term posters such as Arabian and others as I have discussed my pet project throughout my 6000+ posts.

                PS: A key part is mapping stuff between case law, articles, news articles, legal documentation, etc... I don't actually memorize all the references to case law. The neural network does. I would have to have a massive IQ (for which I don't) to keep all that structure together. I simply query it out of a 10+ terabyte database that I maintain. The neural network links everything. Sure, I remember the top hits but, the more obscure stuff... that is all the result of technology and data modeling.

                Hope that answers your question...
                Last edited by Tayken; 03-10-2019, 08:32 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well you don’t have to worry about giving it away to me that is all
                  Completely over my head. It is quite interesting to consider how this might work in looking at court records. I was thinking a discussion board might not work well as a test because because of course people are not going to be truthful all the time. Or purposely add unrelated facts. But then I suppose that happens I. Court to. I assume then it must ID outliers/odd information which doesn’t fit the rest of the pattern. I’ve never considered someone would use the data in here for something, now I feel I have over shared!!

                  Comment

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