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  • Debt division, another question.

    This is going to be a question with a little more detail as I think my mom is going to get fleeced by my dad and I am completely angry at this whole situation...

    I'll start off by saying that for 30 years, my mom was the good wife, bearing through some cheating and utterly ignorant as to the finances of our family. Suffice to say I never had a hard life, but in comparison to other families, we never went on trips, had recreational vehicles or did anything that cost money a a family. As a result of my dad's cheapness, I thought he had a huge nest egg. Turns out he is up to his eyeballs in debt with absolutely nothing to show for it. Utterly sad, and my mom and I are devastated, not only because of the financial state my mom will be left in, but also due to all of the lost memories. The life we could have had and didn't. What an assknob.

    Basically imagine a woman who deserves everything. She is no gold digger and foolishly worked a very hard 15-30 hour a week job all through her marriage to pay for food to feed her self and her son (me) while her husband was making 150,000 a year (and, evidently, blowing it in casinos and on renovations to his mothers house in another province).


    Anyway, I'll keep the following seperate so they can be addressed spereately...

    1) when my Great grandmother died, mom put 80,000 into a 172000 house purchase. Since my mom took an inheritance (protected and seperate from the marriage) and put it into the matrimonial home, is it safe to assume that her 80,000 is unrecoupable to her?

    2) my dad racked up a joint line of credit that my mom thought had a balance of zero, without her knowledge. Is she liable?

    3) my dad got a loan in his name, without my mothers knowledge, which my mother and I recently found out is upwards of 50,000 (gambling). Is she liable?

    4) my dad racked up a Visa (100% in his name) with upwards of 70,000 (thats right, seventy thou). Is my mom liable?

    5) my mother is hoping to get half the house in court, and hopefully get the whole house if settled out of court. will the proceeds from this be wasted paying back debt that my dad accrued without her knowledge? He always kept her in the dark on these matters. We had nothing as a family because we thought he was saving, only to find out he was blowing it on (something???!!!)....

    I am only involved because I am furious and my mom is devastated. I can't see my mom reduced to financial ruin when she did everything for me and supported this family while my dad was away for 90% of the marriage. I am so angry right now I could spit.

    I was looking at the family law act on this matter and it says the following:
    ariation of division
    22. The court may make a division of matrimonial assets that is not equal where the court is satisfied that a division of these assets in equal shares would be grossly unjust or unconscionable taking into account the following factors:
    (a) the income, earning capacity, property and other financial resources that each of the spouses has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future;
    (b) the financial needs, obligations and responsibilities that each of the spouses has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future;
    (c) the standard of living enjoyed by the spouses before the breakdown of the marriage;
    (d) the age of each party;
    (e) the duration of the marriage;
    (f) a physical or mental disability of either of the spouses;
    (g) the contributions made by each of the spouses to the welfare of the family, including a contribution made by a spouse in looking after the matrimonial home or caring for the family;
    (h) the loss of a potential benefit to a spouse by reason of a dissolution or annulment of the marriage;
    (i) the unreasonable impoverishment or dissipation of matrimonial assets by either of the spouses;
    (j) the length of time that the spouses have lived separate and apart from each other during the marriage; or
    (k) the date of acquisition of each matrimonial asset.
    1988 c60 s22
    I feel that this case would satify the requirments for variation based on subsections (i) and (k) being that my father unreasonably dissipated the family assets, mostly in the last 3 years, and he accumulated this debt recently.

    And movement here on these issues of equalization? It seems to me to be a total perversion of the law that a woman who's husband accumulated enormous debt, mostly in his own name, should be held accountable in any way shape or form.

  • #2
    1)She co-mingled the inheritance into the house and so it loses its distinctive treatment as an inheritance. So she doesn't get it back before splitting the rest of the property.

    2)Yes.

    3)No.

    4)No.

    5)Maybe.

    If Dad isn't agreeable to an unequal division of property, expect a fight that may last a long time and costs lots. She will have to be to able to prove the reckless depletion of assets.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm never getting married man. This is so crazy. How he could do her dirty like this, for so long, and now my mom is going to end up with nothing. I feel so, so bad for her. She was nothing but a good mother and wife. She didn't ask financial questions, he could be gone for a month for work and mom didn't complain, she tried to "work trough" his indiscretions, she held a job and payed for me and her to eat because he'd complain about having to buy groceries. All the while he is making excellent money, my friends family goes to Florida or Europe every year, the father actually stays home and plays with the kids and spends time with them. And what do we get for all of this crap? Nothing. I am so angry that the system wouldn't look at this case, give mom everything she missed out on plus more for all the shit she went through.

      Comment


      • #4
        Greg, you will hate to hear this but people have responsibility for their own lives. Was your father perfect, no, but in your mind his job was to enable your mum to live in wilfull igorance, a little fantasy world where she never had to look at a financial statement or plan for the future herself.

        The reality is she didn't do this. She worked and raised you just all the parents here worked and raised their kids and she doesn't deserve society to fall all over her and take care of her because she didn't do it herself.

        Yes your dad was a jackass, but what would be the difference if he got ripped of by a Bernie Maddoff and lost the retirement savings that way? The fact is he is ill and the money is gone. So you want the courts to ride in and rescue your mom like your dad was supposed to do and didn't. Hate me for saying this, but your mom was an adult woman who should have been responsible enough to make adult decisions to take care of herself. If she didn't, that's not the courts fault, it's not the Family Law Act's fault and it's not the Divorce Act's fault.

        Your mom is in a tough spot and I sympathize with her but I don't sympathize with your attitude of entitlement here. Poor you, don't have the memories of European vacations. Never had that SUV that your friends had or the cottage or whatever it is you're whining about.

        If your father gambled it away, guess what? He's old and burnt out and mentally ill and he has nothing either, nothing to show for working his entire life and no family to stand by him. Does he deserve it, or was he ill like I say? You don't seem to care about the answer to that question and I doubt you'll ever bother to find out. You'd rather just bitch because society isn't stepping in and making your dad magicly pay for everything.

        If your mother was paying for everything on a 30 hour a week salary for 30 years and she never figured out something was odd, then she was probably willfully ignorant and had her own mental issues. It's a sad story, but unless you want the public trustee to step in and take control of every person in province's finances, you are going to run into situations like this.

        Comment


        • #5
          If it sounded like whining out of entitlement, it probably was. Hell yes we as a family were entitled to have that money spent on family things. Camping trips, fishing, maybe a trip to Europe. Some people might find that audacious. but when you're making over 200,000, what the fuck else are you going to do with that kind of coin? Two options really, save or gamble. So, he had two good choices and one piece of shit choice. He chose the piece of shit choice.

          No I don't have sympathy for a gambler. I have more respect for a drinker. Mentally ill? Thats a crutch. Psychology today is what religion was to yesteryear. Dogma. Nothing more.

          You speak of adults. He was an adult who knew what he was doing, failing to heed to the consequences is not an indicator of a mental defect. It is an indication of how much he cared, which was not at all. Now that everything has gone to shit, I'm supposed to feel bad for him because he was ill? Right.

          Lets not forget that marriage is supposed to be about trust and love. My mom trusted that he was looking after the finances. And he was flushing it. That doesn't make her mentally ill and you are very much incorrect for suggesting it. This is all on him, NOT my mother and NOT on any supposed mental illness.

          I'm not asking the divorce court to swoop in and save my mother. But how the hell can someone be held to account for debt accumulated without their knowledge. That is unfair. To think otherwise is FUCKING RETARDED. So I can go out and marry someone, open a bunch of accounts without my spouse knowing, and then pawn half of it off on the poor soul? THAT IS FUCKED. Thinking that, and hoping that the judge will rule against saddling my mother with debt she didn't know about is not some fairytale wish on a star. It's god damn logic.

          How is she supposed to even find out about an account at another bank, in another province, in his name, even IF she suspected it? Let alone if she didn't. It's not like she was even willfully ignorant. He was HIDING it from her.

          Don't get me wrong. I understand the law does a lot of guys dirty. I'll never be married. I've heard horror stories about gold diggers and everything else. But sometimes the man needs the be a MAN and MAN THE FUCK UP to what he did, admit to the lying, the gambling and the cheating, and law or not, accept that the debt accrued is HIS AND HIS ONLY.

          Comment


          • #6
            One of the very sad consequences of all this is your anger and bitterness towards him.

            Are you going to carry that cross everywhere you go? Deprive yourself and someone really cool woman of a loving person because of what happened in your family?

            You want people to be held accountable? Get some counselling for your anger, lest you rain down on some poor innocent woman just like your mother when you get into a serious relationship.

            Comment


            • #7
              So, let me get this straight. Someone fucks up, and we must forgive them. If someone is rightfully angry, it is the angry persons fault. Righto.

              I responded so angrily mostly because of the rotten reply. I'm not a trust fund kid, I'm just saying, that's a lot of money to NOT spend on your family. Like, you'd pretty much have to TRY not to spend it on your family.

              FYI, I have a fantastic girl that I love very much. I try my best to keep her smiling and happy. I love surprising her with flowers and drawing hearts on sticky notes and sticking them in her shoes when I go to work. It's great. But I'm going to stick to my guns about marriage. Ain't happening. Not after all of this. I don't have anger issues. But when people fuck up, they deserve to be held to account. I think it speaks volumes of out society that we bend over backwards with this apologetic bleeding heart garbage. You do the crime you do the time. Likewise, you fuck shit up, people are gonna be pissed. That is reality. You fuckin hippies. Peace.

              Comment


              • #8
                Look forward, not back.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Greg,

                  Two completely different issues going on here:
                  - a financial mess
                  - feelings of betrayal.
                  A lawyer for the first and a therapist for the second.

                  This, unforturnately, falls under life sucks sometimes. Mess has it right, tough as it is to hear. It will take time to have all this sink in as it follows the standard reaction to tragic events. Disbelief, denial, frustration, and anger.

                  I feel for you and yours, but what is done is done. Time to start picking up the pieces and seeing what is left and what is possible.

                  And you are right, IMHO, no marriage without a pre-nup to protect both side's assets and to make everyone accountable for themselves in an uncertain world.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Greg, pull your head out of that cloud of anger and look at the facts.

                    Your father's debt in his name is his, not your mum's. She MUST pull her head out of her ass and get out of bed with him financially though before he declares bankruptcy. That's her responsibility, not the courts, not your dad's, not mine. It's her life, she has to start taking control of it.

                    The debt that is joint is half hers, and she had the full responsibility to be aware of what she was signing and what was going on with it.

                    Going through life filled with hatred and anger is destructive to you and to everyone you touch. I hope some day you realize that, and I hope it's before it's too late. Yes you have to learn to forgive, not for the other person's sake but for your own, otherwise you end up a walking sack of bitterness. You have a choice right now about how you live, how you feel and how you move on. Your dad isn't making you do anything from this day forward, only you are. That is what we are saying to you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      what about this equalization stuff?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by greg1 View Post
                        You speak of adults. He was an adult who knew what he was doing, failing to heed to the consequences is not an indicator of a mental defect. It is an indication of how much he cared, which was not at all. Now that everything has gone to shit, I'm supposed to feel bad for him because he was ill? Right.

                        She was an adult just as much, he made his choices and she made hers. Nobody is saying you or she doesn't have the right to feel angry or bitter about the way things have turned out, nobody is saying you have to forgive him. Understand, the court does not award more to the person who sings the best 'who done who wrong' song. It isn't biased towards those who feel more hurt or betrayed, the laws are set out in a way that avoids the whole emotional side of things which is as it should be.

                        Your mom could have at any time chosen to ask the questions, be involved and she didn't. Her ignorance of their finances was of her choosing, doesn't mean he should have spent the money the way he did but she'd have had some idea long before things were the mess they are now had she bothered to ask.

                        I do wonder, if he hadn't made so much money or had been injured or otherwise unable to work, would you still feel so angry about all the things you feel you missed out on? Aside from your obvious anger have you really suffered from not visitting Martha's Vineyard or being shuttled around in a fancy car?

                        You have a lot of anger directed at your dad, at some point, you will have to realize that your mom assumes some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs as well. Are you as angry with her for not intervening before things were such a mess?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Greg,
                          I don't mean to "pile on" because I understand your frustration with the "system".
                          I too was married to someone that was financially irresponsible.
                          We did have some joint debts and we also had our "separate" debts.
                          Some of which I knew nothing about.
                          I have just completed a trial in which these debts and the payment / division was the biggest topic.

                          At all costs, and I mean ALL COSTS, help your mother avoid going to a trial.
                          As frustrating and wrong as the system appears / is, you will not likely get the answer you want by going to trial.

                          The harsh reality is the system does not care about your mother or father. The court is neither "fair", or "equitable".

                          Get the best advise you can afford and get the two of them to work something out. Please understand that neither one of them will be happy. Your mother may feel used and abused for all the years of love and support she gave your father. These feelings may be justified, but in my experience the courts will not care.

                          If you really want to help your mother, stop blaming your father and get them working together on finding a solution to the issues at had.
                          Get them both on the track to putting their lives back togther and moving forward.
                          One final bit of advise....bitterness is one of the most destructive emotions.
                          It can eat you and everyone else around you up. Talk to someone, anyone. For your parents sakes, don't be bitter.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Greg,

                            For your own sake, don't let bitterness take you over.

                            You never have to like what went on, but don't keep it burning inside of you. It could eat you up.

                            Talk to someone who can help you put things in perception.

                            Comment

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