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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mess View Post
    You should have read this many times on this forum, and this has been quoted from a judge's decision, that if a child didn't want to go to school a parent would still send them. If a child of 9 doesn't want to go to their other parent's house, they should still be sent. By allowing this you are complicit. You could pick up your son at school tomorrow, or take other immediate steps. You are allowing your ex to exert control.
    Always good to read it again...

    As Justice Quinn stated in Gerenia v. Harb:

    Originally posted by The VERY Honourable Mr. Justice Quinn

    Undoubtedly, there are many tasks that a child, when asked may find unpleasant to perform. But ask we must and perform they must. A child who refused to go on an access visit should be treated by the custodial parent the same as a child who refused to go to school or otherwise misbehaves. The job of a parent is to parent.
    Many highly conflicted parents just don't understand this... They send letters saying that the children don't want to go to the other parent (amazingly lawyers send them often), they write affidavits trying to project the wishes of children, have their "friends" write affidavits, all while trying to undermine the other parent attempting to project the "wishes" of a minor child. Very sad to see happening so often in Family Law.

    Good Luck!
    Tayken
    Last edited by Tayken; 11-27-2012, 12:25 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
      I think I typed out this letter about 100 times on here, but you send your ex the following email and follow it up with a copy sent via registered letter.

      Dear Satan's Life Coach,

      I disagree with your unilateral decision to alter the parenting time schedule. It is in the child's best interests to maintain frequent and meaninful contact with each parent, and as parents, it is our obligation to facilitate that relationship.

      Unless the child was severely ill and requires medical services, I believe I am capable of parenting the child and ensuring their health and emotional needs are met. I don't agree that due to the child being distraught that I should be denied parenting time with our child. Further, [child] is not of an age where they are capable of making such decisions on their own, and as such must abide by the parenting schedule.

      As such I respectfully request makeup time at the earliest opportunity to recoup the parenting time denied by you. Failure to either a) provide the child for my parenting time and b) to provide makeup time for the lost parenting time, will cause me to seek the appropriate remedy in court.

      Our child has always gone between homes and has never appeared uneasy in my care. I respectfully request you continue with the status quo parenting arrangement and ensure that the child is ready for my parenting time tonight.

      Should you have any concerns, I would be happy to entertain them. But I don't agree that either your nor the child have the authority to unilaterally alter the existing parenting time arrangement.

      Best regards,

      SuperDad

      But send the email first, follow it up with a registered letter. Request mediation. Should she continue to deny your parenting time, file a motion in court requesting specified parenting time that followed the previous status quo.

      It sucks that you don't have an agreement already. Part of me says go to school and pick up the child. But if she causes a scene, stay calm/reserved/stoic. Don't engage, just say that you are here to pickup your child for your parenting time and that you don't agree that she has the authority to unilaterally alter the parenting time arrangement.
      Terrific letter. Thanks very much. Tweaked and used it via email and gave it in person to my ex, as well as a copy to the school Vice Principal. Mediation has been requested. My lawyer has been sent an email outlining the incidents and I've asked for a motion to be filed requesting EOW status quo.

      I sent the Principal an email, asking him to call me about my situation. I phoned and learned he was off today. I discussed my situation with the secretary (who is familiar with it and has the parenting schedule of which parents week it is) I met with the VP, and lo and behold, my ex walked into the entrance. My ex, myself and the VP met in her office as my kids settled in the entrance. The VP heard our stories, acknowledged my week, and asked if it was fair to put the kids on the bus. I said ok, in order to prevent more drama.

      Upon our kids being dropped off, my ex and her bf were there and we had a discussion about my parenting week with the kids and her disrespect of my bonding time and frustrating my efforts. She spun everything to ask your son what he wants. Our 9 yr. old son has been manipulated by his mother for 11 weeks, and he said he wanted to go home with her.
      I clarified it was my parenting time and our son didn't make the decision and my ex has an obligation to make him go to his dad's. My ex didn't understand or get this at all. Despite me asking her to review the letter I gave her (combo of your's ^^^ and Justice Quinn's quote) I also summarized the quote, however she still failed to grasp her responsibility.

      In the end, my son went in her vehicle, and the bf, my ex, and my son returned and reunited my son to me at 8:30pm, after some texts, and phone calls. Mediation is being pursued. The school knows where things lie, and history could repeat itself. Boundaries have been reinforced. Time will tell how things play out.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tayken View Post
        Always good to read it again...

        As Justice Quinn stated in Gerenia v. Harb:



        Many highly conflicted parents just don't understand this... They send letters saying that the children don't want to go to the other parent (amazingly lawyers send them often), they write affidavits trying to project the wishes of children, have their "friends" write affidavits, all while trying to undermine the other parent attempting to project the "wishes" of a minor child. Very sad to see happening so often in Family Law.

        Good Luck!
        Tayken
        So true. My ex, and the school principle both received a custom letter of which the Honourable Justice Quinn is quoted. You are bang on...my highly conflicted ex didn't grasp this in print and upon me explaining it to her. This situation doesn't apply to me and my child...I can find equal legal info to counter your statement...
        Sounds more like a desperate/I overstepped my boundaries response than a genuine counter.

        It truly is sad - because our son continues to be manipulated by my ex, and she is using his (9 yr. old) wishes to validate where he should go.
        Heard her manipulating him on the phone while he was speaking to me. Very pathetic situation...

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by bthom View Post
          She spun everything to ask your son what he wants.
          So she was willing to drag the boy into the middle of an adult issue.....nice.

          If she asked me to ask the boy what he wants, I'd have replied with "No. I am a) not willing to drag our son into the middle of this. It isn't in his best interests to force him to pick favourites. We are both his parents and he both of us equally. And b) he is 9. He doesn't to choose where he lives. If he were 13 or 14, I'd consider it. But not at 9."

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by bthom View Post
            So true. My ex, and the school principle both received a custom letter of which the Honourable Justice Quinn is quoted. You are bang on...my highly conflicted ex didn't grasp this in print and upon me explaining it to her. This situation doesn't apply to me and my child...I can find equal legal info to counter your statement...
            Really not the best idea to serve anything on the principal of the school and here is why:

            Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

            Separated parents in high conflict have a way of dragging others into their child custody and/or access dispute. Not just family friends, and neighbours, but every professional associated with the children. The parents seek to bolster their claims to support their custody and access position and believe letters of support from their professional service providers will do the trick.

            They ask doctors and dentists for letters stating which parent more often brought the children to appointments. They ask daycare providers and teachers how the child behaves depending on which parent drops off the child. In the process, the parent also informs the professional of his or her version of events, thus going beyond asking for a letter of support, by actively recruiting the professional to his or her side of the dispute.

            If a professional service provider offers a letter of support, the precedent is set for that professional service provider to then become a target from the other parent. The other parent is seeking to discredit the letter provider. In reality, the nature of the dispute requires the other parent to discredit the letter provider. The aim is to restore balance and hopefully tip the scale in favour of his or her own claim in the custody/access dispute.

            As the dispute intensifies and the competence or bias of the professional service provider(s) becomes the battleground, the services provided to the children may become tainted. The physician and/or dentist may seek to remove him or herself from providing the child’s care to escape parental harassment. The daycare or school setting, once perceived as a place of neutrality and safety for the child, is a source of anxiety as the child fears parental intrusion and has to cope with the service providers’ consternation with the parents. Collateral damage then includes a loss of service to the child as well as an increase in distress for the child.


            Originally posted by bthom View Post
            Sounds more like a desperate/I overstepped my boundaries response than a genuine counter.
            Actually, the counter is to cite back common sense that you shouldn't be dragging the child's service provider into the argument. Bad idea...

            Originally posted by bthom View Post
            It truly is sad - because our son continues to be manipulated by my ex, and she is using his (9 yr. old) wishes to validate where he should go.

            Heard her manipulating him on the phone while he was speaking to me. Very pathetic situation...
            What is sad that you are creating unnecessary conflict, dragging in neutral third parties (principal) and exposing the conflict to these people.

            You are your own worst enemy.

            Good Luck!
            Tayken

            Comment


            • #21
              I'm not sure I agree Tayken.

              My reason for disagreeing is that, while some parents may drag service providers into the middle causing them uncomfort with dealing with the child, it is still important that they be kept in the loop for informational purposes only.

              If the child starts to struggle in school, advising the school that there are some issues at home (or homes) will allow them to focus on how best to deal with the child in that situation. Otherwise, should the child act out, they would be unaware of the reasoning behind it.

              But speaking to the school (or other service providers) in a mature manner, and not slagging the ex or causing the provider to take sides, there is little harm to the child. Keep it much like I suggest you deal with the ex, high level, mature, like you were speaking with the judge. Keep the emotions out of the equation, but advise them of their responsibilities and your reasonable expectations.

              The article above likely deals with parents that turn every service provider into a battleground with the ex. That isn't always the case. I let me daughters teacher know that the ex and I aren't together and that there are certain continuing issues I have with the ex regarding school (lack of involving me) and that I will work the school as much as possible to ensure that I am kept informed. I don't turn it into a battleground. I keep it mature. And so long as one is able to keep it from being a battleground to just setting expectations, most schools will understand and the kid won't even notice.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                I'm not sure I agree Tayken.

                My reason for disagreeing is that, while some parents may drag service providers into the middle causing them uncomfort with dealing with the child, it is still important that they be kept in the loop for informational purposes only.
                Considering the thread's title and taking that into consideration is the reason I posted the information. "Abuse" is a strong word to be using and hopefully the OP is acting as you suggest in your message. Also, considering the conflict the OP is alleging with the other parent in other threads. The concerns of "parental alienation" included...

                My concern is that there is an escalation of conflict and although the OP may be acting in a possibly proper way - e.g. providing the school a copy of the parenting agreement and asking that it be followed - I am not sure how much value a quote from Justice Quinn would be in a letter to the school.

                I don't really know for sure hence the advice to not mess up with the service providers and try to align them to any party's position.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                If the child starts to struggle in school, advising the school that there are some issues at home (or homes) will allow them to focus on how best to deal with the child in that situation. Otherwise, should the child act out, they would be unaware of the reasoning behind it.
                You have to present this information very gently and without prejudice against the other parent.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                But speaking to the school (or other service providers) in a mature manner, and not slagging the ex or causing the provider to take sides, there is little harm to the child.
                Furthermore, not exposing the matrimonial discord is a key thing to keep in mind. The school only cares about the child and not how much the parents are fighting. In fact, if the school becomes concerned, hears something from a parent that is concerning, both these parents may find themselves talking to CAS.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                Keep it much like I suggest you deal with the ex, high level, mature, like you were speaking with the judge. Keep the emotions out of the equation, but advise them of their responsibilities and your reasonable expectations.
                Also, with a view that anything you provide to the school in writing will be read by a judge. Don't write the material with an objective to "impress" a judge by the way... But, that you are a parent and acting as a parent.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                The article above likely deals with parents that turn every service provider into a battleground with the ex.
                If the accounts of the conflict in this matter are truthful (e.g. the car blocking incident) then the concern is not necessarily the conduct of the OP but, the potentially highly conflicted other parent who will turn it into a battleground.

                Some times, it is best to choose when to act. You have to weigh the benefits and reward. A minor issue can quickly become a landmine.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                That isn't always the case. I let me daughters teacher know that the ex and I aren't together and that there are certain continuing issues I have with the ex regarding school (lack of involving me) and that I will work the school as much as possible to ensure that I am kept informed.
                That is the right thing to do. But, I am sure you don't include quotes from Justice Quinn in the letter. (I am truly hoping that the OP didn't provide the same letter to the school.)

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                I don't turn it into a battleground. I keep it mature. And so long as one is able to keep it from being a battleground to just setting expectations, most schools will understand and the kid won't even notice.
                But, if the other parent perceives the OP as trying to undermine them, they will more than likely turn it into World War III and fast.

                Good Luck!
                Tayken

                Comment


                • #23
                  I understand what you are saying Hammerdad but only where a healthy and reasonable parent is concerned. For someone who is high conflict, Tayken is bang on.

                  This is exactly what happened to us last week. My ex sent off an extremly prejudicial email to the school principle and copied in several administrative and teaching staff into it. The email served no other purpose but was an effort to try and "let the school know how badly this party had been treated by the other parent." It was completely unrelated to the children's education but simply spoke of issues the parents were having outside of school. He ranted and raved and spoke "about a war that the other parent had launched against him" and the "experience of hell that the children were living through." A lot of personal information was shared.

                  Staff were left in a very uncomfortable position. The email was inappropriate and unnecessary. The school has been a bastian of safety and neutrality for the children. To put that at risk or compromise that in anyway because someone can not keep their shit together is unacceptable.

                  Fortunately the school principle responded reasonably, making it clear that it was not appropriate for staff to receive such personal emails and that if the parent in question was unhappy, then the proper course of action would be to take the matter to court and not expect the school to mediate.

                  So, it is just not worth dragging service providers into parental conflict. No one wins and the kids lose out the most.
                  Last edited by Nadia; 11-28-2012, 12:50 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Apples and oranges situations being compared here.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
                      Apples and oranges situations being compared here.
                      How is it an "apples and oranges" situation?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                        How is it an "apples and oranges" situation?
                        Sorry, I was referring between Nadia and HammerDad.

                        Two different flavours of "conflict". In HammerDad's case, it's still worth involving the school, so they are aware of a situation, and can address issues (ex. if one parent doesn't provide school information to the other).

                        Nadia's example, it's "mind-boggling" to involve the school in such a manner.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          IMHO a parent like Hammerdad doesn't need to follow Tayken's advice, and a parent like Nadia's ex wouldn't listen to Tayken's advice. So while I think Tayken is making good points, the people who need to follow them won't.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mess View Post
                            IMHO a parent like Hammerdad doesn't need to follow Tayken's advice, and a parent like Nadia's ex wouldn't listen to Tayken's advice. So while I think Tayken is making good points, the people who need to follow them won't.
                            And the advice isn't intended for Hammer dad but, the parent who should be listening to good points even if they won't. Hopefully, someone coming to the thread thinking their idea to attack the other parent through the school is "brilliant" and "creative" thinks twice.

                            Also, for someone like Nadia who has had this happen can leverage the sage advice of Gary (Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW - Counselling; Individual, Marital, Family) and if matters escalate to a point where needed, it can be attached to an affidavit in support of their argument.

                            I still hold hope (call me naive even) that everyone has the capacity to change. Even the most highly conflicted people in our society. The difference is that the person has to notice they need to change. Through change lots can happen but, until such time that the person realizes they need to change and that their current strategies on dealing with conflict are fleeting and failing... They will be trapped in the same cycle of bad advice, conflict and persistent blaming.

                            Good Luck!
                            Tayken

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bthom View Post
                              Terrific letter. Thanks very much. Tweaked and used it via email and gave it in person to my ex, as well as a copy to the school Vice Principal. Mediation has been requested. My lawyer has been sent an email outlining the incidents and I've asked for a motion to be filed requesting EOW status quo.
                              A good resource for you in this situation would be this paper from Family Conflict Resolution Services on Hostile Aggressive Parenting: http://familyconflict.freeyellow.com...eParenting.pdf

                              Originally posted by bthom View Post
                              I sent the Principal an email, asking him to call me about my situation. I phoned and learned he was off today. I discussed my situation with the secretary (who is familiar with it and has the parenting schedule of which parents week it is) I met with the VP, and lo and behold, my ex walked into the entrance. My ex, myself and the VP met in her office as my kids settled in the entrance. The VP heard our stories, acknowledged my week, and asked if it was fair to put the kids on the bus. I said ok, in order to prevent more drama.
                              I know it "sucks", it really does, but the school can't really do much, they definitely can't intervene one way or another. Keep the conflict out of the school and I think right now you need to prepare yourself for court, there is no other way to proceed in my opinion, once mediation has been used and given the willingness of a parent to withhold parenting time from the other parent.

                              Originally posted by bthom View Post
                              Upon our kids being dropped off, my ex and her bf were there and we had a discussion about my parenting week with the kids and her disrespect of my bonding time and frustrating my efforts. She spun everything to ask your son what he wants. Our 9 yr. old son has been manipulated by his mother for 11 weeks, and he said he wanted to go home with her.

                              In the end, my son went in her vehicle, and the bf, my ex, and my son returned and reunited my son to me at 8:30pm, after some texts, and phone calls. Mediation is being pursued. The school knows where things lie, and history could repeat itself. Boundaries have been reinforced. Time will tell how things play out.
                              I would be very, very weary if I were you about having these discussions with your ex, with her boyfriend and possibly the children in visual proximity. First of all the situation is most likely tense and not conducive to resolution and compromise, second you risk putting yourself in the position that allegations may be made against you. I wouldn't do any talking with any high conflict people without a recording device (a smartphone for example) and most importantly a witness.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I know it "sucks", it really does, but the school can't really do much, they definitely can't intervene one way or another. Keep the conflict out of the school and I think right now you need to prepare yourself for court, there is no other way to proceed in my opinion, once mediation has been used and given the willingness of a parent to withhold parenting time from the other parent.

                                I certainly had no intention of the school enforcing any agreed upon parenting arrangement. My intention of giving them a EOW schedule was to identify the fact that the children's parents are separated and the kids go to opposite parents on Monday after school.

                                To avoid schoolyard drama, and a second showdown, I appeared at last recess to pick up my kids on my parenting week, as my ex threatened to pick up our son (9)since he apparently wanted to go home with his mom. It was working well, until my ex showed up with her bf. So, I was in a predicament and was asked to explain along with my ex what was going on.

                                I am hopeful that some progress can be realized through mediation, but am also preparing for what could result in court to defend myself from her claims and sole custody claim.

                                Comment

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