Bank Statements before First Case Conference

[pinkHouses]

To clarify...

Rule 13 in Ontario requires FULL AND FRANK financial disclosure. So yes your bank accounts and financial transactions can be requested. Happens all the time.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/990114#BK32

Provide them. Its disclosure. Request back the same from the other party too.

How far back?
I have threads where you guys said: 'You are not entitled to the tax returns they filed. Only their assessments when filing a motion to change' even though disclosure rules say I am.

@rockscan said the judge in the other file said "no", did I get that mixed up with credit?

Now Tayken says dump everything at their request.

I am receiving mixed messages here.

[StillPaying]

Look at 13(11)(11.1)

Usually since Valuation Date, but can go back further. There is a proportionality to it, but these and more are commonly granted

proof of income from all sources;
recent pay stubs;
copies of your income tax returns (notice of assessment, recent tax returns, notices of reassessment) with all schedules and attachments;
bank statements;
credit card statements;
mortgage documents;
line of credit statements;
money owed to you;
business interests;
property assessment notices;
Copies of all bank, RRSP, and investment accounts

Failure to comply can lead to:

An order for costs
An order dismissing a claim
An order striking out pleadings filed by the party in breach
An order that documents not provided cannot be used
An order for contempt

[rockscan]

Bank Statements before First Case Conference

Look at 13(11)(11.1)

Usually since Valuation Date, but can go back further. There is a proportionality to it, but these and more are commonly granted



Failure to comply can lead to:

Of note from the Ontario Family Law Rules…

Insufficient financial information
13(11) If a party believes that the financial disclosure provided by another party under this rule, whether in a financial statement or otherwise, does not provide enough information for a full understanding of the other party’s financial circumstances,

(a) the party shall make a request in writing to the other party for the necessary additional information; and

(b) if any requested information is not given within seven days of the request, the court may, on motion or at a case conference or settlement conference, order the other party to give the information or to serve and file a new financial statement. O. Reg. 522/21, s. 4 (4).

Which is what happened in my husband’s case—the ex did not believe the financial statement, paystubs, offer letter, EI statement, T4 and T1 were sufficient and demanded more in writing and then after several months, filed a motion for disclosure. The onus was on her to prove why it was necessary(insufficient) to prove income for support purposes. The judge agreed with my husband that he had provided sufficient disclosure and she was ordered to pay costs due to her loss.

Should also note on timelines, it depends on the matter. The ex was demanding a recalculation of child support back to 2015. She was demanding proof of income dating back to 2012. The judge told her he would only order back to 2015, the date she was claiming.

Every case is different and it may require a judge to decide. If you (or your lawyer) decide you meet the Family Law rules and Federal Child Support Guidelines disclosure rules, they can ask all they want. Doesn’t mean they are entitled.

[StillPaying]

...
Which is what happened in my husband�s case�...
If you (or your lawyer) decide you meet the Family Law rules and Federal Child Support Guidelines disclosure rules, they can ask all they want. Doesn�t mean they are entitled.

Now step away from your husband's case for a minute and put yourself in OP's situation.

Original application, not MTC, cs, ss, property, assets, debt, equalization, incomes... everything. It is almost guaranteed that they will need to disclose their bank and credit card statements.

The sooner the better for everyone.

[rockscan]

Bank Statements before First Case Conference

Now step away from your husband's case for a minute and put yourself in OP's situation.

Original application, not MTC, cs, ss, property, assets, debt, equalization, incomes... everything. It is almost guaranteed that they will need to disclose their bank and credit card statements.

The sooner the better for everyone.

Agreed however, most of the cases I’ve reviewed for disclosure don’t go that crazy. It’s mostly been for those claiming self employment income or no income so support should be terminated. In those case decisions there were notes of previous orders for disclosure. Equalization is a whole other ball game and all the info required should be provided except for information that is new/severed from the matter. If they are hiding money yes but the person requesting has to defend why it is needed. They can’t stand up and claim liar. They have to have some sort of proof which the rules outline in “insufficient”.

If OP has provided full disclosure for his case and is headed to a cc, the judge at that conference can decide if there is additional disclosure required.

I’m interested to know how you would feel about your ex having copies of all your bank statements and credit card statements if they weren’t required for proper disclosure. Not argumentative or confrontational. Simply curious. If the other side was asking for disclosure and it wasn’t required, would you put up a fight about your own spending? I remember having this fight with my mother during my parent’s court battle. She wanted to know EVERYTHING about my father and all it did was cause further stress and lack of closure. Is it really necessary or simply a ridiculous fishing expedition?

[StillPaying]

Definitely needed. I think you're caught up in this one-sided view of the reason for the request. This disclosure was definitely ordered and provided in my case; and most (99.9%) cases I would think the first time around.

You can go to the conference and get it ordered - or imagine a world where you go into a conference already having all the facts and ready to move forward on the issues.

[pinkHouses]

So why not ask the OP why they are asking for disclosure?

OP?

[StillPaying]

So why not ask the OP why they are asking for disclosure?

OP?

Think of everything in a financial statement - income, expenses, assets, debt, property, loans, investments, etc. - now think how would you prove the true financial picture. Usually with a lot of statements from both during the marriage and after separation. There's 6 million reasons for it financially, now add in legitimate custody concerns. When you're going through divorce, prepare for all of your financials to be exposed ~ and for your word not to be taken at face value.

[pinkHouses]

Think of everything in a financial statement - income, expenses, assets, debt, property, loans, investments, etc. - now think how would you prove the true financial picture. Usually with a lot of statements from both during the marriage and after separation. There's 6 million reasons for it financially, now add in legitimate custody concerns. When you're going through divorce, prepare for all of your financials to be exposed ~ and for your word not to be taken at face value.

non-response.
So why not ask the OP why they are asking for disclosure?

OP?

[blinkandimgone]

non-response.
So why not ask the OP why they are asking for disclosure?

OP?

You asked and it was answered, I don't think there's a need for reposting the same questions simply because you don't care for the answer.

[pinkHouses]

You asked and it was answered, I don't think there's a need for reposting the same questions simply because you don't care for the answer.

I do not understand, where did the OP answer this?

[podric]

I have a motion to change for child support. First time round disclosure was not complete but it was settled after a couple of years. I believe they hid money.
I asked for their tax return, they refused, sent only the assessments and a super abbreviated filed tax return of 2 pages. The court administrator only asked for assessments.
I asked for their job description, declined.
I did not ask for bank accounts and credit card statements. So I ask for those later?

[rockscan]

I have a motion to change for child support. First time round disclosure was not complete but it was settled after a couple of years. I believe they hid money.
I asked for their tax return, they refused, sent only the assessments and a super abbreviated filed tax return of 2 pages. The court administrator only asked for assessments.
I asked for their job description, declined.
I did not ask for bank accounts and credit card statements. So I ask for those later?

I would ask for all credit applications in addition to bank statements. The bank statements would show any rogue deposits they cant back up. The credit applications will show what they claimed their income was.

Word of caution though, if they are selling belongings or getting money for groceries from someone, that is not necessarily income. You would need to prove that they have income coming in. And as always, the onus is on you to prove why you think that so showing they have a lifestyle that doesn’t meet their income claimed would be a good first step.

As always, it’s a question of value vs reward. If its going to cost you tens of thousands to get information that will only result in say a few hundred dollars of change, it’s not really worth it.

[StillPaying]

I have a motion to change for child support. First time round disclosure was not complete but it was settled after a couple of years. I believe they hid money.
I asked for their tax return, they refused, sent only the assessments and a super abbreviated filed tax return of 2 pages. The court administrator only asked for assessments.
I asked for their job description, declined.
I did not ask for bank accounts and credit card statements. So I ask for those later?

You need a lawyer who understands your file.
Your issues are more than just disclosure - and full disclosure is more than bank accounts.

[podric]

You need a lawyer who understands your file.
Your issues are more than just disclosure - and full disclosure is more than bank accounts.

My issues are unknown at this time.
What are my issues that require me to have a lawyer for disclosure?