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jsmith · #1 02-07-2022, 07:14 PM

We have our first case conference coming up soon. I have already filed all necessary forms and tax assessments returns for last 3 years. My STBX lawyer is asking for bank statements, credit card statements for last 3 years. Am I obliged to provide this information before case conference ? Thank you for all your replies

rockscan · #2 02-07-2022, 08:16 PM

Are they attempting to claim you are purposely underemployed? That would be the reason they are asking. You could respond that you have provided proof of your income, have no other income and work full time for said employer at an annual salary of xyz. Then say you have not applied for any additional credit other than what you have (if any�mortgage, line of credit, credit cards) and you find their request to be unnecessarily intrusive and irrelevant. Therefore you will not be providing it.

pinkHouses · #3 02-07-2022, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsmith

We have our first case conference coming up soon. I have already filed all necessary forms and tax assessments returns for last 3 years. My STBX lawyer is asking for bank statements, credit card statements for last 3 years. Am I obliged to provide this information before case conference ? Thank you for all your replies

For Child Support here are the Federal guidelines for disclosure:
https://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regul.../FullText.html

Section 21(1) is for the Applicant.
Section 21(2) is for the Respondent and says you have to do what is in 21(1)

I don't see anything about bank statements, credit cards or anything like that. They can ask for it at a case conference and a judge is likely to say yes to some of it but that is at a case conference.

pinkHouses · #4 02-07-2022, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan

Then say you have not applied for any additional credit other than what you have (if any�mortgage, line of credit, credit cards) and you find their request to be unnecessarily intrusive and irrelevant. Therefore you will not be providing it.

Or just say "I have provided what is required as per the guidelines"; That gives as few words as possible that can be twisted against you.

Then sent a "without prejudice" letter asking for the outline for settling or settlement discussion but be sure they don't use this just to sucker you into giving up items so freely.

A big question is, do you have something to hide for legal purposes or are you trying not to upset the ex more or do you just want to be strong? This is about negotiating a settlement as well.

rockscan · #5 02-07-2022, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkHouses

For Child Support here are the Federal guidelines for disclosure:
https://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regul.../FullText.html

Section 21(1) is for the Applicant.
Section 21(2) is for the Respondent and says you have to do what is in 21(1)

I don't see anything about bank statements, credit cards or anything like that. They can ask for it at a case conference and a judge is likely to say yes to some of it but that is at a case conference.

Incorrect. They can ask for it at any time and argue why it is required at any time and a judge can order it at a motion if required. If the other side is trying to argue underemployment or cash income, it would be evident on a credit application that you are lying about your income. Or unrelated cash deposits would show unreported income. If there is a history they could demonstrate, a judge could order fuller disclosure.

I will share language from my husbands affidavit and from the judge at his motion for disclosure tomorrow.

rockscan · #6 02-07-2022, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkHouses

Or just say "I have provided what is required as per the guidelines"; That gives as few words as possible that can be twisted against you.

Then sent a "without prejudice" letter asking for the outline for settling or settlement discussion but be sure they don't use this just to sucker you into giving up items so freely.

A big question is, do you have something to hide for legal purposes or are you trying not to upset the ex more or do you just want to be strong? This is about negotiating a settlement as well.

Wow, no.

You respond effectively and succinctly as to why it is irrelevant and why you will not be providing it.

You send them an official offer to settle with your response.

StillPaying · #7 02-07-2022, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan

Are they attempting to claim you are purposely underemployed? That would be the reason they are asking.

There are many reasons to request full and frank disclosure; any one of which would guarantee bank and credit card statements. You can wait for the case conference if you're against providing them, otherwise the sooner the better- and vice versa.

pinkHouses · #8 02-07-2022, 11:32 PM

.................

pinkHouses · #9 02-07-2022, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan

Incorrect. They can ask for it at any time and argue why it is required at any time and a judge can order it at a motion if required. If the other side is trying to argue underemployment or cash income, it would be evident on a credit application that you are lying about your income. Or unrelated cash deposits would show unreported income. If there is a history they could demonstrate, a judge could order fuller disclosure.

I will share language from my husbands affidavit and from the judge at his motion for disclosure tomorrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockscan

Wow, no.

You respond effectively and succinctly as to why it is irrelevant and why you will not be providing it.

You send them an official offer to settle with your response.

Settle down sweetheart. Help us all out and point to the family law rule(s) that say the last 3 years of credit card statements and bank accounts are to be disclosed. I can't find it but I don't mind being wrong.
I made a mistake in not asking, why they say they wanted them and what evidence they had. Money under the table? IDK.

The Form 13 stuff, I also assumed was filled out, it is common knowledge that are needed, that is common knowledge and that leads to section 13. That includes the last CC and bank statements.

If the OP has done nothing wrong then no biggie, if it is found they are hiding something they are screwed (like hiding money) and best to disclose that asap.

@rockscan you have NO clue about their position for settlement so like many people discussing settlement helps but hey the rockscan way is to tell them to "go pound sand". Plenty of people have settlement discussions, plenty of people make settlement offers. Just because you are the way you are doesn't mean others are like that, people talk and should talk even if they are separated.

rockscan · #10 02-08-2022, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsmith

We have our first case conference coming up soon. I have already filed all necessary forms and tax assessments returns for last 3 years. My STBX lawyer is asking for bank statements, credit card statements for last 3 years. Am I obliged to provide this information before case conference ? Thank you for all your replies

You didn't note your employment situation so the answer is difficult. If you are a salaried employee who is paid traditionally by an employer then your paystubs and tax forms are sufficient. If you work for cash, own a company and/or have shares in a company, then you may be required to provide proof of your income in another way like bank and credit card statements. If you are working for cash under the table to avoid paying support, then yes they can ask for these things to prove you have income you are not reporting. The basis of asking for this is to prove you have other income that you aren't reporting. For people who are saying they have no income but then have an expensive house, expensive car, travel throughout the year and spend piles of money, the bank statements and credit statements will show a different picture. If you have provided everything that proves your income and are above board about it and not claiming hardship, the extra info is irrelevant.

I use my husband's example as his ex claimed he was lying about his income as we had a "lavish" lifestyle. She wanted his bank statements, investment statements and credit card statements. He had always provided updated and full disclosure. Using his paystubs, EI statements, tax forms, T4s etc. She had full disclosure on all of his income since they divorced. When she filed her motion to change, she demanded a multitude of disclosure that had nothing to do with the matter.

They had a Dispute Resolution Conference where she first demanded all of this stuff including additional disclosure. The DRO said no. A few months later, she sent her reasons why she wasn't disclosing info and a Form 20 with a list of things she wanted. My husband's lawyer responded with an offer to settle and a notice on what items she was requesting that she already had and why the rest was not being provided--irrelevant.

The ex then filed a motion for disclosure again asking for all these items. Here is the wording in my husband's affidavit:

Bank statements "There is no evidentiary foundation for the request contained at paragraph X. I believe that this is nothing more than an attempt to further humiliate me."

Credit Card Statements "Once again, there is no evidentiary foundation for the request contained at paragraph X. I have not claimed an undue hardship and have made all payments of child support required under the agreement and increased the payment of support each year when my income increased. I fail to see how my expenditures have any relevancy to the issue before the court."

Credit applications "Once again, I am a salaried employee and do not own or operate any other business. I do not know how to obtain a copy of a credit application. My only debt facilities other than my mortgage are a Visa with BANK, and a secured line of credit. I obtained the Visa in YEAR. I do not carry a balance on my credit card and I do not have a copy of the credit application. I obtained the secured line of credit in DATE in order to pay for a new roof on my home. The line of credit was only used for the payment of the roof. The debt has subsequently been retired. I do not have a copy of the credit application. To the best of my knowledge the line of credit was part of the 'mortgage package' which was offered to me when I renewed my mortgage."

We ordered transcripts from the motion to clarify some issues with the endorsement and this is what the judge said regarding bank and credit statements to the ex.
"Unless you're going to be trying to say that he is intentionally under-employed, and if that's the case then the onus is on you to prove that. There's a Court of Appeal decision that everyone refers to, called Drygala v. Pauli and the onus is clearly on you..."
"...it's not a question whether you agree with the answer or not, did he answer is really all the request for information is all about."
"He could be carrying a heavy credit card balance. As long as the support is paid pursuant to the agreement, we don't care. It's only when he asks the Court to reduce his support because it's a hardship for me, then we'd want to see his credit card statements and if it shows a lot of activity we'd basically say to him you're out of luck...because he's not claiming hardship, it's his personal life."
"he says no (to credit applications) how can you disprove a no. If he says no it is no."

You can take my info or leave it. PinkHouses has been trolling me for several months and likes to call me names and claim I'm stupid which should give you an indication of his responses to things I say. I give you the example from my husband's experience to consider. There are other more senior members like Janus, Tayken and Kinso who also provide good advice on things like this.

good luck to you!

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