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  • #16
    It has happened, and there have been charges, in Ontario at least... I don't have case law handy to know how many ended up being convicted in the end, but at least some of them were, since the John Howard society was discussing this. Whether convicted or not, in the end, in the interim, one is without a driver's license for months, etc...while one waits for "court" to decide your fate.

    People should be aware, that this can and does happen.

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    • #17
      Central Park Horse-Drawn Carriage Driver Fined for DUI - DNAinfo.com New York

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      • #18
        FYI, you can also be charged with impaired as well, under the "care and control" aspect, in this common situation:

        Nice weather out... spending some time on the weekends in the warm weather washing your car inside and out, in your own driveway - enjoying some beers. Maybe you have the keys in the ignition, because you are listening to some summer tunes. Maybe you don't, but you have the keys nearby or on your person.

        You have now "broken the law", if you are "impaired" by the law's definition, which isn't much...only .08 and above. If a cop wants to, you can be charged.

        Again, it doesn't usually happen, but if you have a neighbour that dislikes you, they could call the police for a noise complaint, or whatnot...and then the police can charge you for "care and control" in that situation, if they want to. Hope that the police don't come towards the end of their "quota period" I guess.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
          I don't have answers to the other questions, but you can totally get busted here in Ontario, for driving impaired, even on private property. You don't even have to be driving...

          Technically, one can get busted for sitting impaired on their private property, or maybe sitting around a campfire, at a private campground. If you have keys that the cops can show are accessible to you, being impaired, even if they aren't on your person, or in the car, you can get busted for "care and control".

          I don't think many people realize that. Think of all the times one sits around a campfire, enjoying a few beers. Your car keys are probably in your pocket. Your car is probably parked on the campsite, somewhere. Cops show up, because they received a "noise complaint" or something of that nature. They see you are drinking, and start asking you how much you've had, etc... You can be charged.

          It usually does not happen, but it has happened more than you think.
          Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
          It has happened, and there have been charges, in Ontario at least... I don't have case law handy to know how many ended up being convicted in the end, but at least some of them were, since the John Howard society was discussing this. Whether convicted or not, in the end, in the interim, one is without a driver's license for months, etc...while one waits for "court" to decide your fate.

          People should be aware, that this can and does happen.
          Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
          FYI, you can also be charged with impaired as well, under the "care and control" aspect, in this common situation:

          Nice weather out... spending some time on the weekends in the warm weather washing your car inside and out, in your own driveway - enjoying some beers. Maybe you have the keys in the ignition, because you are listening to some summer tunes. Maybe you don't, but you have the keys nearby or on your person.

          You have now "broken the law", if you are "impaired" by the law's definition, which isn't much...only .08 and above. If a cop wants to, you can be charged.

          Again, it doesn't usually happen, but if you have a neighbour that dislikes you, they could call the police for a noise complaint, or whatnot...and then the police can charge you for "care and control" in that situation, if they want to. Hope that the police don't come towards the end of their "quota period" I guess.
          I think the circumstances you are thinking of are when people are driking at provincial parks, or similar. These are not private property and as such HTA can still apply.

          In the case of private property, the police would need to be invited onto the property by the complaintant (property owner) in order to do this.

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          • #20
            Private property is not exempt from the criminal code, which this falls under.

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            • #21
              Here is a little blurb I found that might help:
              Court of Appeal lists ?care and control? factors - Ottawa Criminal Lawyer

              I don't see anything here about sitting around a campfire be considered in care and control. Walking near the vehicle with your keys in your hand might be though....

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              • #22
                Here is a Supreme Court ruling that clarifies it:

                The elements of care and control are:
                (1) an intentional course of conduct associated with a motor vehicle;
                (2) by a person whose ability to drive is impaired, or whose blood alcohol level exceeds the legal limit;
                (3) in circumstances that create a realistic risk of danger to persons or property

                In this case, the Supreme Court held that the risk that the car be set in motion must be a realistic , as opposed to a theoretical, one. If all that was required was a theoretical risk, then anyone found drunk in a car with any access to the keys would be convicted. While the standard was not meant to be a high one, this was clearly too low and would capture innocent or benign conduct.

                Be careful where you fall asleep: The Supreme Court reviews the offence of impaired care and control | The Litigator - Kingston, Ontario

                The case was one where a Quebec man wakes up one morning after heavy drinking, and has to leave. He calls a cab, gets into his car to wait and turns on the heater (keys in the ignition) to wait for the cab. The cabbie found him asleep at the wheel.

                The man was acquitted.

                So getting back to the campfire example, if you are drunk and headed towards your car, and the obvious conclusion is you are going to drive drunk, you could be charged. If you were just heading there to get a pack of smokes no problem. (if you can prove that).

                As for the opinion on private property, I was witness to an incident where an upstairs neighbour was asleep at the wheel, passed out and the police were called on a noise complaint. The car was in the driveway. My van was behind it, so the car could not move. The police threatened to charge him with impared care and control, but did not. I moved out of there a few weeks later.

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                • #23
                  From personal experience, I have seen police held at bay by the property owner refusing them entrance to the property.

                  Shenanigans were proceeding in plain sight of the police - yet they were unable to enter the property without permission.

                  I don't exactly know how this would relate to 'probable cause' and Drinking and driving - but I'm pretty certain they would be powerless in that situation.

                  Perhaps too it needs to be considered that typically a home-owner does not technically own their property from the road to the sidewalk. Maybe if the car is parked on that spot they can intervene.

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