The high road gets bumpy

[good_mom]

OCL brings CAS into this and then goes against findings which is no issues great parent.....so when they don't tell you what you want to hear then you reject it.

I think this is a point that should be mentioned by your lawyer about the CAS report.

OP lawyer will say only look at OLC report but in report it has to talk about CAS report....how can you minimize or reject it and overturn it when OCL set that in motion?

[LovingFather32]

OLC brings CAS into this and then goes against findings which is no issues great parent.....so when they don't tell you what you want to hear then you reject it.

I think this is a point that should be mentioned by your lawyer about the CAS report. Who started the process.

..then OCL recommends sole to mom unless dad does sexual counselling. Even AFTER no concerns reported.

OCL said "She is held to higher standards than CAS". My lawyer out this statement in an affidavit.

Police detective quoted in the report "these questions were very leading. I would have never asked a child like that".

OCL brought this to CAS to add another barrier to my case .. that's it. Backfired on her it would seem.

[MrToronto]

There's 15 balls in the air (was 12 but OCL...sigh) you got to juggle.

How things are handled determines your matter (and Costs)

Judges need facts.....barring facts ....balance of probabilities....barring that common sense.

reducing 24 pages of stuff to 5 or 6 pages is an art.

There's stuff that doesn't need 10 pages (OCL is a whack job as an example), maybe 1 CAS report and OCL license

Judges are serious about their Orders....their rulings...their judgements....a EM Judge....a CC Judge .... obtained for the bored Motions Judge... a consent order....hmmmmmmmmm

I wonder if ....the Motion's Judge is going to give his golf partner judge buddies, the finger and go with the OCL.

For the Motions Judge to do that... he considers the next Judge (other golf buddy) at a Settlement Conference who may be late for his scrambled eggs and bagel...because of the OCL.

Where is the OCL sitting at Motion's....or Settlement Conference'or Trial Management Conference......NOWHERE...... but later in a witness box stuttering and reaching for COSMO magazine ....but that's Trial

Follow the Judges Endorsements...to the letter...you can't lose

[LovingFather32]

Follow the Judges Endorsements...to the letter...you can't lose

Yes. That's the plan.

I've said it since day 1. I love these judges. Even though I haven't had access and been through the ringer here Im smart enough to figure out that these judges are doing their job, helping me out directly in their endorsements. (i.e - "Although do not feel Mr LF32 requires supervision ...etc)

What's scary is its all the judge at this point though. I have a compelling case. But who knows what judge I'll have.

My lawyer told me a story of one of her previous clients ... got in to the court room. The judge was making statements off the bat such as "You know .. I could throw you in jail", etc. She said her and her client decided to adjourn in the hallway after that to wait for another judge.

So I really have to believe in the system here. I have faith in judges at this point. They're smart, educated and they've seen it all. Time to pray something goes my way.

[MrToronto]

Good for you....anyways that's why there's an appeals court.

But that's later

You lawyers right ....Judges are human...and some days....nuts

I will tell you this....they go buy Endorsements ....re read your above statement on a Judge saying....you know I could throw you in jail (and they can....that day they can turn anybody maybe even a Prime Minister of Canada into a prisoner)

people don't understand the power a Judge has.

If a Judge has NO TIME for B.S...and the endorsements from previous judges align.....I'd fix problems in the court hallway

Your lawyer ...I got no idea some day's which planet she's from....staple your endorsements to her forehead. So she can read them while she's shaving in the morning.

Stories....mean past failures in Court....with a dufuss that punched his EX in the face (hospital picture's)....and was charged

Then some future Judge after 5 other Judge endorsements will make that jail statement.

your lawyer proves my point anyways.

Judges live in the past....common law is based on the past....judges don't make new law.....there sheep and follow

[Beachnana]

I think Rioe has summarized your position really well. I would leave the crucifixation of OCL until after you have your access. Once you have that agreement signed and in place, then you can go after OCL at your leisure.

I think judges are not simple, but like clear simple lines of fact. So do not cloud your case with the theory of OCL gone crazy story. Do not get Judge confused. Dispute OCL report with facts and move on.

[arabian]

Last time you were with a judge you and your ex received direction that you proceed with access. Last time in front of judge, your ex was in the throws of accusing you of having serious drug/alcohol problem. You got the tests which disproved her allegations.

I would think that you should bring the judge up-to-speed on what has transpired since that time. You have a record of each and every time you requested access and were denied. Focus on that.

Seems to me that everyone (high conflict cases) who enter into family court in Ontario routinely involve OCL and CAS. You have that covered now.

So you have denied access and disclosure(?) from other side.

Now you have to get make-up time for all the access which was denied as well as establishing a generous, realistic access to see your daughter, taking your work schedule into consideration would you not?

Unless the other side submits documentation in accordance with the Rules of Court for your Province I would think that the crapola (snippets of home movies) that your lawyer receives is merely typical sleaze-bag lawyer positioning.

Actually I would stay away from submitting ANY home-movie tapes. Why give any credence to this form of media at all? Trying to schmooze a judge on how you relate to your daughter seems a bit desperate to me. You can do the dog-and-pony show at the trial.

[LovingFather32]

I think it's very telling that D3 tells ex's MOTHER about secrets, bath time, etc. Didn't take long for her to come in to the picture.

Also ex says she's "concerned" that D3 doesn't tell her about the visits when she gets home. I wonder why? a) she's confused. b) it may be setting up a negative atmosphere for her if she speaks positively about me. c) Oh my god she's 3. Leave her alone. She doesn't need to be grilled. I don't ask a million questions about her mom's house or what they do.

I am guessing that will be a big item at the motion .. the ENDORSEMENT going from "DRUGS/ALCOHOL" to "MANIPULATION/"putting thoughts in her head", "DISLIKES SUPERVISOR" in terms of denial access. (Baths = OCL...not ex).

It also wasn't nice of them to delay CAS investigation past the 7 day deviation by claiming they were at their "cottage" in QC. I was with her for 8 years. They have no cottage. But that's besides the point.

I wish you could all be there watching this crap on Thursday. Since you know every intimate detail of the case. I wish I got th transcript of the CC where the Master said to my ex

"With all of your unilateral decision-making Ms. ___, if Mr. LF32 decides to do a voluntary hair follicle and it's clean, you may have an uphill battle to climb."

A judge would love to read that from previous judge no?

After I showed my hair follicle to OP first, "refused to believe it was valid". Once he found out it was he kept repeating to my lawyer "ha ha .. bet he wont get an alcohol one". I went out and got the most strenuous alcohol one there is out there.

Like, What else can I do?

[LovingFather32]

I also read something in the CAS report that bothered me.

When raising D3 I used many behavioral principles parenting (contingent positive reinforcement, redirection, extinction - dealt with many extinction bursts, etc.). Dealing with tantrums and other maladaptive behaviors is my job.

I found redirection worked best with D3. OCL mentions this in her report, that D3 was becoming upset and I got a doll and had the doll do the task and D3 laughed (became redirected) and did the task). Long story short .. Ive rarely seen D3 tantrum in my life. Not a tantrummer .. unless she was when I was at work.

Ex states in CAS report that
1. D3 has big tantruming issues. Will bang her head against the floor?

Excuse me? Tell me again? Bang her head against the floor? Am I being paranoid here? Im not okay with that. D3' head shouldn't be smashing against anything. Ive NEVER seen that in my life with D3.

[arabian]

If there is too much focus on these reports then the judge very well may order analysis done by independent psychologist. If that is done then I pray that you get access in the interim. Other side is obviously stalling and wants things to continue on the way they are.

[LovingFather32]

That cant happen right? Im not going to walk out of there with no access. I don't know what Ill do?

[arabian]

A lot is riding on your lawyer and how she presents things. Boring the judge with matters which will be determined at trial is a sure-fire way for a grumpy judge to want to pass the buck.

I'd focus on:

1. Access - 50% unsupervised so parents/relatives can see daughter at their homes
2. No move out of jurisdiction
3. Full financial disclosure


There is nothing in ANY report, no matter how ludicrous, to justify no access or even supervised access IMO. Your laboratory testing has come up clean, CAS and police have no objections, OCL has not substantiated their slander with one iota of fact/evidence. You are a law-abiding, gainfully employed, father of a young child. Child was taken from her home without your knowledge or permission. You are not shirking your financial responsibilities to your child and are therefore current/up-to-date on guideline child support.

[MrToronto]

Morning Arabian!

I totally agree Access is what Court jockeying people lose sight off.

Incredible as it may seem, OP has a position on why Access is "suspended"

It'll be all LF32's fault of course.

The OP where hunched over LF32's Motion brief the other day, looking for contradictions and stuff to refute and prove there side's position.

LF32 probably will have no chance to respond or make a rebuttal to OP reply so it's best to "head the horses off at the pass!" or prepare for it anyways.

First item of OP .....why they suspended access.

And like Arabian alluded too ....record everything that transpired, just before during and after the access was denied (they say suspended, you say denied)

This has to be a quick reference in front of your lawyer...no digging for it...there will be NO time....and whispering to your lawyer...can tick off a Judge ....and your lawyer won't get what you whispered correctly anyways.

OP defence will probably be Goldilocks is a concerned confused "not her fault" cautious loving parent.

You may of Touched on the "supervisor" in your brief...but OP will have a page or two on the supervisor. (with her affidavits attached)

OP....not our fault OCL suspended access. (so you need all those dates, when why, conclusion...cas)

OP....after OCL suspended access it's not our fault OCL had a concern with LF32's supervisor (OP going to distance themselves)

OP....supervisor was mean spirited...she made this claim in affidavit which was false (attachment 4)...and....and ....and...and

OP....we were open for another supervisor but LF32 didn't do.. in letter dated ...(attachment 28)

OP ..We are sorry on the access confusion....it's best we start supervised over....because LF32 is a ..... and our concern is...

Your position is you continued to request access "after CAS"

1) If OP had access issue's they were just "stating their concerns" and not offering any solutions

2) Sure the supervisor wrote affidavit's:

- going back to skoool end of August
- OP refused a communication book
-other good reasons... (2 quick ones should suffice, not a lot of time for lawyer to go into detail)
- she's a responsible adult, that both parties consented too, but not trained as a supervisor.

3) Access was still declined by OP after CAS refuted OCL....as if OP was still following OCL concern's....as of date...OCL or OP each didn't take ownership on suspending access.

4) ALL previously offered supervisors were rejected,

-OP wasn't offering any....LF3 would of gladly accepted if they did
-EX didn't have a supervisor to offer "in Ontario"
-LF32 would of accepted one of the EX's Quebec girlfriends or family members as a supervisor, she always brought with her.

four quick answers...to the very few questions a Judge will have.

Answers have to make sense, if Judge is looking for confirmation or leaning towards unsupervised

OP will try to minimize and deflect why access is canceled...not there fault with reasons

Go over every Objection and pleading OP will possibly have (in their Reply)....get quick answers for Lawyer to review prior to entering Court room....you'll have hours in the hallway.

Access is why your there in Court.....and you have the Consent Order on access to enforce.....with a mountain of bull to refute by OP.

[LovingFather32]

You're so right.

What I should do is make a "to-the-point" cole's notes for my lawyer while she's in court.

She talks for 40 mins
LAO talks for 40 mins
She talks (rebuts) for 20 mins ---> She needs to have perfect rebuttals.

So I need to know what they're going to say.

Violence/coaching/secrets/bathing, boundaries/family, etc at visits/recordings/emotional abuse/manipulative/OCL is god .. better than CAS

And come up with specific points.

Good news of the word "denied" is that CAS specifically uses that word throughout their report as well.

I know the facts of this case so well (the truth is simple to remember) that I will be able to come up with rebuttals to their reply quickly.

I have "enema" training the night before for work until 8:30pm .. So I hop lawyers good for a later meeting.

Honestly, I cant see no access being given here. I do predict the judge will cringe at the amount of material here though. That's what Im worried about. But like you said Mr. T .. shoot s much paper, documentation, Family dr. notes, etc that you can.

Re: supervisor. Supervisor made 2-3 page affidavit on OCL's inaccuracies and claims regarding her also.

Chess. Predict OP's responses --> Have quick, effective, logical responses on hand (that can back up - ie - CAS report).

CAS report is a huge weapon.

Secrets? CAS says no. CAS interviewed in absence of mother. OCL interviewed beside mother.

Boundaries? CAS says no. OCL asked incredibly leading questions. CAS did not. Even police were baffled by her interview techniques. They refused to even interview the parties.

Violence? Ex tells police "mental", OCL: mental/physical, CAS "mental", counsellor mental/physical.

Were doors off hinges or broken down? (story has changed)

Did LF32 keep you up all night fighting or pass out before D3's bedtime (Story changed)

Recordings? Authenticity? Dates? Who transcribed? Mega edited? E in them too! etc.

How is it possible you locked yourself in bedroom/bathroom when these doors actually have no locks on them?

Manipulative? Even OCL states in her report that D3 told her neither parents say bad things about each other.

I mean the rebuttals are fairly simple. It's just articulating them to judge in a brief, strategical way.

[arabian]

If your lawyer goes in there intending to blab on for 40 minutes at the start then you have IMO fallen into one big trap that the other side would so dearly be pleased with.

You have already submitted your documents ahead of time to the judge. Your lawyer's job is to highlight everything and tie it together. This should not take any more than 10 minutes unless she is muddying things up way too much and trying to present things that the judge (or other side) have not had a chance to review.

If you want the other side to play by the rules (and not turn this motion into chaos) then you had best play by the rules yourself. Your lawyer should want to come across professionally rather than stoop to unprofessional tactics of trying to ambush the other side.

Is this matter scheduled for a "long" or "short" motion?

I'd keep it as simple as possible. You can always schedule another motion to deal with other matters.

If you bog this down too much the judge will most certainly adjourn everything until he has a chance to read everyone's submissions.