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Orders and attaching calendars

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  • #16
    Thank you for the information Tayken. What I am curious about is the time-line in adding to an Order. In this case the minutes of settlement were completed and a lawyer produced a draft Order presumably from the minutes of settlement [Serene will correct me if I'm wrong]. My question would then be can someone add an addendum, or in this case a schedule, to a draft Order if it wasn't spoken to in the Minutes of Settlement?

    The schedule in question might very well be useful for one party to clarify the order, but would the party who wants the change not have to go back to court to include this inclusion?

    Comment


    • #17
      You have a 4 week turn around access schedule, correct? Maybe just focus on that four week schedule to include in your order, as that should last until the order is changed.

      I find it helpful to, at the beginning of each year, send an email outlining my interpretation of all the holidays, birthdays, etc. allowed for in the access schedule for that year. With provisions for alternating access year to year, split holidays, etc., there is opportunity for honest confusion. Taking an hour to spell it out in writing ahead of time, could eliminate several opportunities for conflict over the coming year.
      We have a four week rotation (each week is different).
      The four week rotation is often interupted by holidays, vacations, special days, etc.

      We already have the calendar and it is signed by both mom and dad (it was created for the school bus to know where to drop the kids off). Dad is merely suggesting that it be attached to the Order so that everyone is accountable and clear on what is suppose to happen.

      And sadly, one party to the case has changed the calendar in the past without the other party knowing or without obtaining their consent. This is fact. We are trying to avoid this from happening again. It may very well be a meek attempt but its our best effort.

      I do appreciate your input ByMyself

      Comment


      • #18
        In this case the minutes of settlement were completed and a lawyer produced a draft Order presumably from the minutes of settlement [Serene will correct me if I'm wrong]. My question would then be can someone add an addendum, or in this case a schedule, to a draft Order if it wasn't spoken to in the Minutes of Settlement?
        Dad can ask if they will consent to the inclusion. No one is suggesting doing anything deceitful.

        I would think this is in the spirit of making an "order on consent".

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Tayken View Post
          I have read hundreds. Remember, what is posted to CANLII often doesn't outline the full order. They are decisions and not "orders" per-say.

          I have read well over 200 cases end-to-end that include custody and access evaluations (OCL/Section 30).

          In temporary order situations they are quite common. In fact, Justice Czutrin orders specifically that the calendar is to be maintained 6 months in advance and via OFW:

          Case on point:

          L.L. v. M.C., 2012 ONSC 3311 (CanLII)
          Date: 2012-07-19
          Docket: FS-08-00340601-0000
          URL: CanLII - 2012 ONSC 3311 (CanLII)
          Citation: L.L. v. M.C., 2012 ONSC 3311 (CanLII)



          I would advise the OP to review this case law on how to properly apply the methodology of a calendar and how to have one implemented.

          Good Luck!
          Tayken
          The OP made no mention of using My Family Wizard. The order has been written based on minutes of settlement.

          One party can now choose to change their method of communication POST settlement and include it in settlement?

          Surely that isn't so. Please tell me that we don't spend all this time and energy devising minutes of settlement for them to be unilaterally amended?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by arabian View Post
            Thank you for the information Tayken. What I am curious about is the time-line in adding to an Order. In this case the minutes of settlement were completed and a lawyer produced a draft Order presumably from the minutes of settlement [Serene will correct me if I'm wrong]. My question would then be can someone add an addendum, or in this case a schedule, to a draft Order if it wasn't spoken to in the Minutes of Settlement?

            The schedule in question might very well be useful for one party to clarify the order, but would the party who wants the change not have to go back to court to include this inclusion?
            I'm very curious. There's a lot in my last order I'd like to amend and change, especially if I'm not hindered by having to get consent from the other party.

            If I take my order and attach a calendar to it now, will that now be the access schedule?

            Comment


            • #21
              One party
              can now choose to change their method of communication POST settlement and include it in settlement?

              Surely that isn't so. Please tell me that we don't spend all this time and energy devising minutes of settlement for them to be unilaterally amended?


              Not sure where these references came from. I surely didn't suggest or imply this...

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
                I don't think MS Mom bullied anyone. She attempted to answer the question the OP posed. I was simply pointing out that this particular OP doesn't listen to answers she doesn't like....and I posted it to MS Mom, not to the OP.

                If you don't like my responses, please feel free to hit ignore. As far as I know, there is no mandatory requirement to read anyone's material here.
                I appreciate that PH. I take care in my posts not to come off as bullying. I attempt to keep the sarcasm at a minimum and I've genuinely tried to help this poster. I've been more patient and polite than countless others would have been.

                I'm not a bully and I take exception to the finger-pointing and accusations. But, that's why I have an IGNORE button I can use too.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Serene - I'm asking the question as I am curious about procedure - nothing whatsoever to do with your particular situation (deceitfulness). I'm merely curious about this part of the process as if it were allowed my ex would surely try to take full advantage of any opportunity to re-argue his case or alter an order if he could. Fortunately I have a good lawyer but others may not.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Serene View Post

                    Not sure where these references came from. I surely didn't suggest or imply this...
                    Was the calendar part of the minutes of settlement?

                    If it wasn't, it shouldn't be part of the order. You're attaching a calendar to the order now is futile.

                    That's why an agreement is an agreement - because everyone agreed.

                    You may know that the calendar matches the agreement word for word - she doesn't.

                    If you wanted a calendar as part of the agreement, it needed to be negotiated into the agreement.

                    Hell, at least that's my basic understanding of agreements.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Seeing as Mom and Dad have both signed this calendar and it is outlined in words in the agreement, what is the harm done? OP is not suggesting changing anything. This calendar was already agreed upon by Mom and Dad and signed by both. This isn't about one party trying to one up the other, it is trying to make things more clear. When there is a complex access schedule, having a visual is often easier than reading through a bunch of text.

                      Serene- every year a schedule is is created in excel that outlines the access days. This is mostly for Dad and I because we have busy schedules, especially during the summer. Every year Dad forwards this to Mom and when changes are made due to summer Holidays, an updated calendar is sent. No one can say for sure if she uses it, but she certainly doesn't object to it. I would simply tell Dad to ask Mom if she has objections to adding the calendar, if she does, leave it out, you have the words, but if she doesn't care, then go for it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        This is probably all covered somewhere under Rules of Court?

                        I know the lawyer/party who drafts the order sends it off to the other party for approval so the Order is then filed basically as an Order on Consent. I'm not sure that this process is intended to vary (by way of addition or deletion) of other things. Of course the party who initiates the draft Order can refuse the other party's request and then it gets put back to the judge for clarification/direction. This is what has happened to my ex on several occasions.

                        Curious situation because I can see how it could open up the door for continued disagreement.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                          Seeing as Mom and Dad have both signed this calendar and it is outlined in words in the agreement, what is the harm done? OP is not suggesting changing anything. This calendar was already agreed upon by Mom and Dad and signed by both. This isn't about one party trying to one up the other, it is trying to make things more clear. When there is a complex access schedule, having a visual is often easier than reading through a bunch of text.

                          Serene- every year a schedule is is created in excel that outlines the access days. This is mostly for Dad and I because we have busy schedules, especially during the summer. Every year Dad forwards this to Mom and when changes are made due to summer Holidays, an updated calendar is sent. No one can say for sure if she uses it, but she certainly doesn't object to it. I would simply tell Dad to ask Mom if she has objections to adding the calendar, if she does, leave it out, you have the words, but if she doesn't care, then go for it.
                          Forwarding and sharing a calendar is different than attaching one to a court order.

                          I think I highlighted that in my response.

                          If it was agreed to and signed by both parties as part of the order, then it IS part of the order. It should be referenced within the order itself though, when the minutes of settlement were devised.

                          ie. Access schedule is as per the attached calendar or something to that effect.

                          The orginal question was worded quite differently - like the calendar was an "afterthought" meant to clarify an unclear agreement. The OP didn't state that it was incorporated as a part of the Minutes of Settlement.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MS Mom View Post
                            Forwarding and sharing a calendar is different than attaching one to a court order.

                            I think I highlighted that in my response.

                            If it was agreed to and signed by both parties as part of the order, then it IS part of the order. It should be referenced within the order itself though, when the minutes of settlement were devised.

                            ie. Access schedule is as per the attached calendar or something to that effect.

                            The orginal question was worded quite differently - like the calendar was an "afterthought" meant to clarify an unclear agreement. The OP didn't state that it was incorporated as a part of the Minutes of Settlement.
                            I agree with what you are saying. In the original post I don't think the OP was very clear, but with further reading it was stated the calendar as been signed by both and agreed up on.

                            So from what I am taking from this, the question should be...

                            If both parents agree to the calendar, can it be attached?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                              I agree with what you are saying. In the original post I don't think the OP was very clear, but with further reading it was stated the calendar as been signed by both and agreed up on.

                              So from what I am taking from this, the question should be...

                              If both parents agree to the calendar, can it be attached?
                              Personally, I believe that the signed piece of paper needed to be referred to as Schedule A or whatever in the order itself.

                              But I also believe that documents need to be submitted on time, in a clear format. But, my ex's lawyer keeps proving me wrong on that point....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Berner Faith you have it correct:
                                I agree with what you are saying. In the original post I don't think the OP was very clear, but with further reading it was stated the calendar as been signed by both and agreed up on.

                                So from what I am taking from this, the question should be...

                                If both parents agree to the calendar, can it be attached?
                                The calendar was created immediatly after the minutes of settlement based on the new access calendar that was consented to. There was much confusion in creating it and we are merely wondering if it CAN be included with the Order that is currently in DRAFT stage on CONSENT of both parties.

                                The calendar has already been signed by both parties and the principals of each school. I am not debating if it SHOULD be attached. I am asking HOW the wording is to be IF it were to be attached. It would be most prudent to suggest the correct wording should the other party agree to it being attached.

                                Dad's opinion is that there is merit to having it attached for both parties. However, I'm not prepared to get into that as my intent with this thread was not to debate its merit, but again, to find the appropriate wording.

                                For those who have referenced "re-arguing the case" no one is suggesting that at all. It is merely providing the visual of the access schedule that was signed by both parties. And if it is a "badly worded" minutes of settlement than a visual will go a long way in assisting the parties in interpreting it. If the minutes of settlement were properly worded then it is the cherry on top

                                Comment

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