BC girls murdered on Christmas /custody dispute

[ifonlyihadknown]

I feel this is because in family court every single allegation is considered a false allegation.

Well, the courts pretty much have to start with the premise that an allegation is false until the judge is presented with evidence to the contrary. This is especially true when it is in family court and they're potentially deciding to not allow a parent access to their children. It's no doubt even more complicated if much of the evidence is of the "he says-she says" variety.

As far as parenting skills go, I believe that most children pick up parenting skills from their own parents, grandparents, etc. as they are growing up.

[rockscan]

The sad part is that even if he had lost custody, if he planned to kill the children he could still have done it with limited custody. Heck I bet he would have even done it if supervised. Unstable people with these tendencies crack regardless of the checks in the system. Unfortunately the children are the victims.

He should have killed himself too.

[tunnelight]

CTV news has an article about this case and that it raises questions about family court judges and domestic violence. I don’t know how to copy and paste it here to share with you.

The CTV post is of course looking at this issue from one side of the fence. The issue is, women have, and do make false allegations about men about domestic violence to "win" sole custody and justify denying the father reasonable access. With some women doing this, how do we know which female is being truthful and which is liying ? Without evidence, it is not feasible to conclude that a man should not have reasonable access to their children. If that was to be the case, then parents could just throw in false allegations of abuse to restrict the other parents involvement.


here is response from LSUC:

Miriam Kresivo, president of the Law Society of B.C., said the parents had come to their own agreement on a parenting schedule that included visits with the father and it's hard to say that Gray should have reached a different conclusion.

She said the case was no different than the thousands of disputes that go through the courts.

"There is nothing unusual in her judgment," she wrote in a letter to the editor published Friday by the Victoria Times Colonist. "Gray applied the law based on the evidence before her."

[tunnelight]

I do consider that society already teaches girls parenting skills far more than boys, yes. "No, dolls are for girls, here's a truck" and so on. Boys are still (generally) discouraged from learning nurturing skills. We still (generally) also teach boys to bottle up their feelings, to fear being perceived as weak if they admit they need help, and to homophobically avoid close emotional platonic friendships with other men.

What does girls playing with dolls have to do with parenting skills ? What about boys playing with kittens, puppies, or other pets they may have ? They feed them, take them for walks, train them, do they not? Does playing with Police cars, Firetrucks and ambulances make men better parents who are better able to respond to emergencies too ? Or is that a skill that is learned by brushing a dolls hair too ?

Nurturing skills are not learned - they are naturally in humans. Mothers are no more nurturing than fathers are. I disagree that boys are thought to fear being perceived as week if they need help . If that ever happens that would be in the case of physically falling down, or physically getting hurt, etc - not emotionally. Boys also make very good close friends with other boys- like brothers - bro!

Many men have only vague ideas how to parent because they have not often been exposed to those skills until having a baby, and then their wife probably does most of the work, which she learned as a child playing with dolls, as a teenage babysitter, and from her close friends who are already moms.

Whoa whoa. Men have often been exposed to those skills and their wife's don't probably do most of the work. That may have been true back in the day when women stayed at home and men worked. But now adays, both men and women work, and women are outside of the home (and away from the kids) just as much as men are. If you want evidence of that, just look up the number of cases where mothers are seeking contribution towards daycare.

Again, it is unreasonable to say women are better parents because they played with dolls. What does that have to do with anything ? Boys don't take care of their toys or play with dolls? Spider man isn't a doll ? Doesn't spider man save lives ? The boy didn't have any pet dogs or hamsters that he took care of ? A cat, maybe ? Is it just girls who have pets ? I don't think so.

Only girls babysit? Boys don't have little brothers or sisters they look after? Are you sure about that ? Men don't have sisters or other family members or close friends who are moms ? Are you sure ?

Additionally, men rely far more on their spouse than on their male friends to provide all their emotional support, while women have a network of female friends. So, when a marriage ends, compared with the mom, the dad is left with poorer parenting skills AND less support available from his friends.

Men don't have a network of male friends? Are you sure ? Do you have any research you wish to share with the forums?

How does friends effect your parenting skills ? How do you conclude that most of moms friends are parents and dad's friends aren;t ? I know of separated parents where mutual female friends took the males side - and cussed out the female for resorting to false allegations of abuse to win over their child. You don't think that women tend to make friends with women just because they are women now do you ? Or is that a problem with female family law professionals - there will be a bias towards moms because they both played with dolls as kids ?

Yes, I'm generalizing badly, and there are wonderful exceptional men (just as there are terrible exceptional women), but on the whole, we still have a lot of work to make them the norm. I hesitate to call myself a feminist on this forum because of the anti-male perception that goes along with it these days, but this is one of the main pillars of feminism: that boys/men and girls/women be afforded the same opportunities. This includes providing boys with the skills to be capable parents and expecting it from them when they are men.

You are indeed - and have proven exactly my point. That society (or women like you) believes women are better parents than men - which is complete utter non sense.

Feminism - not even feminists agree with feminists. Some feminists believe it is to be anti-man while other believe it to be equality for both men and women.

I think equal opportunities would mean that men should be equal opportunities to parent their children as do women after a separation and/or divorce without presumptions that mother's are more nurturing then fathers just because they may have played with barbie dolls when they were kids.

Now to put a little fun twist to your argument, I think playing with barbie dolls (and all the barbie private jets and jeeps and mansions) would make girls grow up to be materialistic more than anything.

[blinkandimgone]

Well you've managed to misquote, take partial comments and change the context and seemingly purposely misconstrued the majority of Rioe's post.

Perhaps go back and give the post a full and thorough read through for what it ACTUALLY says and offer a well thought out reponse instead.

[tunnelight]

Perhaps go back and give the post a full and thorough read through for what it ACTUALLY says and offer a well thought out reponse instead.

Perhaps, you could tell me what you understood from her post.

[blinkandimgone]

I didn't misunderstand her post at all.

[tunnelight]

I didn't misunderstand her post at all.

So then what was the meaning that you picked up from her post ?

[blinkandimgone]

Sure...later when I have more time to do so. It's fairly straightforward though.

[tunnelight]

Sure...later when I have more time to do so. It's fairly straightforward though.

Ok. I look forward to your post.

[Rioe]

Ok. I look forward to your post.

Me too! I know I can be wordy, and sometimes meaning is lost.

[blinkandimgone]

Originally posted by tunnelight
What does girls playing with dolls have to do with parenting skills ?

Diapering, bottle feeding, bathing, sleeping, skills for meeting the basic needs of a baby/child, not necessarily making them experts in any way, but recognizing that these are requirements.

What about boys playing with kittens, puppies, or other pets they may have ? They feed them, take them for walks, train them, do they not ?

Playing fetch with your dog or tossing a toy mouse doesn't relate in any way to basic skills for taking care of a human. It teaches empathy, and can teach some basic levels of responsibility ie: feeding a pet, cleaning up after pet. But not basic parenting skills for humans.

Does playing with Police cars, Firetrucks and ambulances make men better parents who are better able to respond to emergencies too ?

Playing with cars, firetrucks etc doesn't have anything to do with taking care of a child or meeting a child's basic needs.

Or is that a skill that is learned by brushing a dolls hair too ?Nurturing skills are not learned - they are naturally in humans.

This is absolutely untrue. There are many, many studies that show children early deprivation of nurturing relationships can severely damage or limit a child's development of empathy, social skills, nurturing and a wide range of areas linked to a child's successful development. For example: Why some people lack empathy

The capacity for empathy and nurturing is there, however without it being fostered it can be limited in development.

Mothers are no more nurturing than fathers are.

Mothers are (traditionally) TAUGHT to be more nurturing than fathers. Which is the point Rioe was making. These skills are more often encouraged in girls from a young age rather than in boys. Society still markets dolls, play kitchens, play houses, laundry, baby beds, dollhouses etc to girls - they come in pinks and purples, not traditionally "boy colours" for a reason.

I disagree that boys are thought to fear being perceived as week if they need help . If that ever happens that would be in the case of physically falling down, or physically getting hurt, etc - not emotionally.

We hear it all the time: "Man up..." "What are you gonna do, cry about it?" "Oh...did that hurt your feelings??" We see examples of it everyday, men are less likely to seek help for mental/emotional issues, depression, suicide, abuse because they have been taught to bottle their feelings from a young age rather than express them. We see all kinds of publicly available services for women who are divorcing, have been abused, need a shelter, need support as a new mom, even down to breastfeeding/bottle feeding support for mothers. There are SOME resources available for men, but not as many and not nearly as public.

Boys also make very good close friends with other boys- like brothers - bro!

This is a perfect example of the "Bro!" mentality boys face. Society, as a whole, has not encouraged the same emotional development and sharing in boys and men as they have with women. Boys are taught to be less emotional, they don't have the same kinds of open communication with their friends about how they're feeling and why. So many times guys try to have conversations with their buds about being down or upset about something and get redirected to macho-themed distractions - "Fuck it, let's get drunk and forget about it!" Sure, the bromance is real, when you want to have a slagfest about an ex, or a good old fashioned chest-thumping session. But when shit gets real and you're crying in your car with a broken heart over a girl, a guy will call his mom before he calls his buddies to listen to him cry it out. Men have close friends, but they don't have and aren't given the same kind of emotional support that women do - because we're taught to do it, men aren't. It's not right, but it's reality.

Originally posted by tunnelight
Whoa whoa. Men have often been exposed to those skills and their wife's don't probably do most of the work. That may have been true back in the day when women stayed at home and men worked. But now adays, both men and women work, and women are outside of the home (and away from the kids) just as much as men are. If you want evidence of that, just look up the number of cases where mothers are seeking contribution towards daycare.

Rioe specifically said “many men”, not all men. Traditionally, women did most of the caretaking. Many men do more of the caretaking now than before, however it is still very common among families where both parents work, that women do more of the caretaking.

Again, it is unreasonable to say women are better parents because they played with dolls. What does that have to do with anything ? Boys don't take care of their toys or play with dolls? Spider man isn't a doll ? Doesn't spider man save lives ? The boy didn't have any pet dogs or hamsters that he took care of ? A cat, maybe ? Is it just girls who have pets ? I don't think so.

Nowhere in Rioe’s post did it say that women were better parents - for any reason. She pointed out that women are more exposed to parenting type activities from a young age through certain types of play that is typically discouraged for boys. Spiderman is a doll, however it isn’t marketed to boys as a doll to blanket and feed and diaper, rather a rough and tumble smash ‘em up character who fights bad guys – or sometimes is the bad guy when he raids Barbie’s house.

Only girls babysit? Boys don't have little brothers or sisters they look after? Are you sure about that ? Men don't have sisters or other family members or close friends who are moms ? Are you sure ?

Rioe didn’t say that only girls babysit or look after their siblings. Again, the statement began “many men”, not ‘all men’. She did not say that men don’t have sisters or other family members or close friends that are moms.

Originally posted by tunnelight
Men don't have a network of male friends? Are you sure ? Do you have any research you wish to share with the forums?

Rioe never said men don’t have a network of male friends. You have taken this out of context. She said: “Additionally, men rely far more on their spouse than on their male friends to provide all their emotional support, while women have a network of female friends. So, when a marriage ends, compared with the mom, the dad is left with poorer parenting skills AND less support available from his friends.” Women do typically have more emotional support through their same-sex network of friends than men do. But, as previously stated, men do not have the same kind of emotional relationships and support from their male friends as women do from theirs.

How does friends effect your parenting skills ?

Rioe never said having friends affects your parenting skills You've taken this out of context.

How do you conclude that most of moms friends are parents and dad's friends aren;t ?

Rioe never said anything of the kind. You've taken this out of context.

I know of separated parents where mutual female friends took the males side - and cussed out the female for resorting to false allegations of abuse to win over their child.

Rioe didn’t say anything at all relating to this.

You don't think that women tend to make friends with women just because they are women now do you ?

Women DO make friends with women specifically because they are women, specifically for emotional support. However people in general – male or female – when faced with some situations where they are forced to choose, will most often gravitate to the ‘side’ that is not behaving in a manner that is generally disturbing and morally wrong, regardless of what sex that person is. This has more to do with a person’s values as a human being than gender.

Or is that a problem with female family law professionals - there will be a bias towards moms because they both played with dolls as kids ?

I have personally seen many family law professionals that are biased more towards the mother that are both men and women. A friend of mine recently walked out of a mediation session with an older male lawyer when he was informed by the lawyer that his ex would automatically get full custody of the kids because she was the mother. And this was a man with 25+ years in the business.

[blinkandimgone]

Originally posted by tunnelight
You are indeed - and have proven exactly my point. That society (or women like you) believes women are better parents than men - which is complete utter non sense.

At no point did Rioe say or imply that women are better parents.
Feminism - not even feminists agree with feminists. Some feminists believe it is to be anti-man while other believe it to be equality for both men and women.

There is a huge difference between feminism in the sense of being a strong, independent woman with equal right/pay etc and being feminist in the sense of anti-male. Being anti-male is NOT a requirement of being a feminist, and just because you are a feminist doesn’t mean you ARE anti-male. It doesn’t take anything away from men if women are treated equally. It is possible to raise women up to the same level in a lot of the ways men are treated better without it being detrimental to men in any way. Men don’t need to suffer for women to be equal.

I think equal opportunities would mean that men should be equal opportunities to parent their children as do women after a separation and/or divorce without presumptions that mother's are more nurturing then fathers just because they may have played with barbie dolls when they were kids.

So you agree with Rioe’s statement that “that boys/men and girls/women be afforded the same opportunities.”
Which would start at an early age with: “ providing boys with the skills to be capable parents and expecting it from them when they are men.”

Originally posted by tunnelight
Now to put a little fun twist to your argument, I think playing with barbie dolls (and all the barbie private jets and jeeps and mansions) would make girls grow up to be materialistic more than anything.

Totally your opinion, but all things being equal, if Barbie can afford her own jet, jeep and mansion just like Ken can, how does this take away from Ken in any way? Does it make men materialistic to grow up playing with Hot wheels Ferraris? Or does playing with toys representing nice things only affect women this way?

[Tayken]

Good jorb Blink!

[tunnelight]

Diapering, bottle feeding, bathing, sleeping, skills for meeting the basic needs of a baby/child, not necessarily making them experts in any way, but recognizing that these are requirements.

And what sources can you cite which proves that fathers or men don't have the skills (or don't recognize them) for meeting the basic needs of a baby/child just because they didn't play with dolls as a child ? Do women / moms taking parenting classes - you know - the ones walking around holding real life looking baby dolls that cry, burp, etc, - mean that they never played dolls as a child? Or intended to teach them things that they did not learn while playing with dolls ? Do you have any further evidence that it is only women who take those classes and not men ? Parenting classes are also offered to women, last time I checked and attended. And Trust me, they played with many dolls as a child but still needed to attend classes to learn how to parent a child or baby as they were skills they clearly felt they lacked (even though they played with dolls).

Playing fetch with your dog or tossing a toy mouse doesn't relate in any way to basic skills for taking care of a human. It teaches empathy, and can teach some basic levels of responsibility ie: feeding a pet, cleaning up after pet. But not basic parenting skills for humans.

And wait.. all dolls are bottle feedable ? Hamsters or puppies aren't ? Pets aren't bathed but all dolls are ? Pet's don't sleep but dolls do ? Pet's aren't like babys ? Dolls are more like baby's than real life (and breathing) pets are ? These dolls don't have to urinate or poo as much as the real life pets (which boys take care of) do now do they ?

Playing with cars, firetrucks etc doesn't have anything to do with taking care of a child or meeting a child's basic needs.

Exactly my point - neither does playing with dolls - no more than playing with pets anyhow.

This is absolutely untrue. There are many, many studies that show children early deprivation of nurturing relationships can severely damage or limit a child's development of empathy, social skills, nurturing and a wide range of areas linked to a child's successful development. For example: Why some people lack empathy

The capacity for empathy and nurturing is there, however without it being fostered it can be limited in development.

You have said there are many studies, but you have not shown any that shows that these are skills children learn by playing with dolls and are depirived out of it if they don't play with dolls. You have not provided any evidence that such skills are not learned by playing with parents , siblings, pets, or even toys for boys as opposed to girls.

Mothers are (traditionally) TAUGHT to be more nurturing than fathers. Which is the point Rioe was making. These skills are more often encouraged in girls from a young age rather than in boys. Society still markets dolls, play kitchens, play houses, laundry, baby beds, dollhouses etc to girls - they come in pinks and purples, not traditionally "boy colours" for a reason.

Agreed (traditionally - not in this day and age), And I did say that is a mindset that was true for back in the day when women worked and men did not. Yes, society still markets these things, but there is no evidence to show that it teaches them basic parenting skills - and not any more than boys playing with pets and other toys - or taking care of younger siblings. A mom isn't a better parent and more nurturing just because she played with dolls. Working dad's ex sure as hell wasn't.

We see all kinds of publicly available services for women who are divorcing, have been abused, need a shelter, need support as a new mom, even down to breastfeeding/bottle feeding support for mothers. There are SOME resources available for men, but not as many and not nearly as public.

Buh buh but I thought you said women were more nurturing and learned these skills because they played with dolls ? Seems to me women aren't as nurturing as men are and NEED such help to be as good parent as men are. Men can be parents without support, but women can't do it on their own - they rely help from other to parent because they did not learn these skills from playing with dolls. I, as a father, could teach you how to bottle feed a child without ANY class. Heck I was the parent that did it when our baby was born. Never had done it before. Just used 0.005% of my brain to figure that one out. I even had to help her with breasfeeding! Man those titties on those dolls must have been highly nonfunctional. God forbid if I had to play with a barbie doll or take classes to learn how to use my penis.

his is a perfect example of the "Bro!" mentality boys face. Society, as a whole, has not encouraged the same emotional development and sharing in boys and men as they have with women. Boys are taught to be less emotional, they don't have the same kinds of open communication with their friends about how they're feeling and why. So many times guys try to have conversations with their buds about being down or upset about something and get redirected to macho-themed distractions - "Fuck it, let's get drunk and forget about it!" Sure, the bromance is real, when you want to have a slagfest about an ex, or a good old fashioned chest-thumping session. But when shit gets real and you're crying in your car with a broken heart over a girl, a guy will call his mom before he calls his buddies to listen to him cry it out. Men have close friends, but they don't have and aren't given the same kind of emotional support that women do - because we're taught to do it, men aren't. It's not right, but it's reality.

It was a joke. Sense of humour much ? It's not a bro! mentality men face. Many men have such open relationships. We even have men that are more open than most women are. We even have gay men who get married. I don't know what sort of men you have been surrounded with or heard of, but I have not had any friends with the whole "fuck it let's get drunk" - but know of many females who say that. followed by YOLO. And just for the fun of it, here is my favourite pic of all time in relation to that.




Need I say more? Yes - Yes, I will continue once I have some more time.