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  • The Case for Marriage

    Bonjour!

    Not sure if everyone east of Québec knows Anne France Goldwater but she's a family lawyer in Montréal who has a podcast with her kids:

    http://thegoldwaters.libsyn.com/epis...e-for-marriage

    She's taken on some high profile cases in the past (Eric vs. Lola, gay marriage in 2002) so she might be familiar with some but if not, I highly suggest you check out this podcast. Despite having 1 marriage and 2 common law relationships fail AND having seen the nasty side of Family Law for 30+ years, she still believes in marriage which kind of blew me away.

    I often wonder if I would ever get married again (usually verging on 'hell nah!!') but the fact that she's not jaded, and my parents fairly turbulent marriage which has kind of settled down now nicely makes me think she may be onto something.

    Woudl love to know your thoughts! Give it a listen if you have time..

  • #2
    I don't really listen to videos of people talking, or audio versions thereof.


    Is there a transcript? I'll read it.


    Originally posted by ensorcelled View Post
    I often wonder if I would ever get married again

    As a woman, why would you not want to get married? If you lived together without getting married, how would that help?


    For guys, getting married to somebody in a lower income bracket is nuts. I have relationships, but nobody is living with me unless they have a good job and we sign a massive premarital contract that basically says "no SS for any reason whatsoever, no exceptions". I will then go on to list every possible reason that I can think of. Eg. medical, accidents, disability, disease, injury, mental illness, poor economy, etc. etc. etc..

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Janus View Post
      I don't really listen to videos of people talking, or audio versions thereof.


      Is there a transcript? I'll read it.





      As a woman, why would you not want to get married? If you lived together without getting married, how would that help?


      For guys, getting married to somebody in a lower income bracket is nuts. I have relationships, but nobody is living with me unless they have a good job and we sign a massive premarital contract that basically says "no SS for any reason whatsoever, no exceptions". I will then go on to list every possible reason that I can think of. Eg. medical, accidents, disability, disease, injury, mental illness, poor economy, etc. etc. etc..
      They actually discuss all that at length.

      Comment


      • #4
        So, I'm not going to watch the video. Summarize the answer! As far as I can tell, marriage creates rights for women, and obligations for men. Therefore, women should generally want to get married, and men should generally not want to get married.


        There are obvious exceptions, but for the vast majority of men, getting married is a horrible mistake.


        Conversely, for women, not getting married is a horrible mistake.


        In a shocking result, it appears that women are more interested in marriage... go figure.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Janus View Post
          So, I'm not going to watch the video. Summarize the answer! As far as I can tell, marriage creates rights for women, and obligations for men. Therefore, women should generally want to get married, and men should generally not want to get married.

          There are obvious exceptions, but for the vast majority of men, getting married is a horrible mistake.

          Conversely, for women, not getting married is a horrible mistake.

          In a shocking result, it appears that women are more interested in marriage... go figure.

          When I got married, it was a horrible mistake!


          I can't imagine being willing to do that again. I can't imagine that any cohab-prenup type contract that would satisfy me would ever be upheld by a court if it was contested. Maybe if 'at-fault' came back into law, so that a breach of the contract on one side absolved the other side of all obligation.



          I didn't listen to the podcast either. Not enough time in my life to devote to something I'm not interested in!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Janus View Post
            So, I'm not going to watch the video. Summarize the answer! As far as I can tell, marriage creates rights for women, and obligations for men. Therefore, women should generally want to get married, and men should generally not want to get married.


            There are obvious exceptions, but for the vast majority of men, getting married is a horrible mistake.


            Conversely, for women, not getting married is a horrible mistake.


            In a shocking result, it appears that women are more interested in marriage... go figure.
            They actually tear down those stereotypes quite nicely. Women who are married live shorter lives than single women, are more stressed out and are worse off financially after separation.

            The one statistic that really sat with me was the idea that the pooling of expenses is 'split' upon separation, but the pooling of resources towards the children always falls more on the mother, even in shared parenting situations.

            I know you purport to hate marriage but it's a good listen if you have time. I find it interesting that in Québec the trend is to marry 10-20 years after you have kids as a symbol of 'Hey! WE made it!' vs. a marker to start off your adult life .

            Comment


            • #7
              Marriage is a religious construct that has been enshrined in law that is no longer necessary in 2018.

              There literally is no "case for marriage" once "no-fault" divorce was introduced.

              I disagree with the speaker on this subject matter.

              Marriage disadvantages the higher income earner no matter what the gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc... is.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ensorcelled View Post
                Women who are married live shorter lives than single women

                Wouldn't the more appropriate comparison be married vs. cohabitating women? Otherwise, you are just making the case for/against cohabitation, not marriage.




                are more stressed out and are worse off financially after separation.
                Compared to what? Men? Single women? Over what timeframe?

                The one statistic that really sat with me was the idea that the pooling of expenses is 'split' upon separation, but the pooling of resources towards the children always falls more on the mother, even in shared parenting situations.
                I don't understand the previous paragraph.

                I know you purport to hate marriage
                I don't purport to hate marriage. I strongly hope that my daughters marry. I just don't think its such a good plan for a my son.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                  Marriage is a religious construct that has been enshrined in law that is no longer necessary in 2018.

                  There literally is no "case for marriage" once "no-fault" divorce was introduced.

                  I disagree with the speaker on this subject matter.

                  Marriage disadvantages the higher income earner no matter what the gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc... is.
                  She actually covers this - did you listen to the podcast?

                  Sorry to repeat myself if you did but her point was that if you do split up there is a more equitable division of assets as a married couple than common law (which she disagrees with, but that's the way the legal framework is).

                  As for the disadvantages - that's assuming you want parity all the time for all people everywhere. I actually think it's a good thing for one partner (no matter what the gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc) to lean back for a few years when the kids are small, or when the grandparents are ill, or when a child a a severe illness or whatever but that's assuming the family can take the financial hit.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Janus View Post
                    Wouldn't the more appropriate comparison be married vs. cohabitating women? Otherwise, you are just making the case for/against cohabitation, not marriage.






                    Compared to what? Men? Single women? Over what timeframe?


                    I don't understand the previous paragraph.


                    I don't purport to hate marriage. I strongly hope that my daughters marry. I just don't think its such a good plan for a my son.
                    I think you should listen to the podcast instead of replying to posters. It would explain things better than I can.

                    Also? That last part is frightening. Is there a dowry involved?! Why would you say that?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ensorcelled View Post
                      Also? That last part is frightening. Is there a dowry involved?! Why would you say that?

                      For a variety of reasons, I'm fairly confident that my son will be a high-earning individual. Anyone he marries will likely be lower earning than him, likely substantially so.


                      Marriage could expose him to some serious financial losses. At the very least, I'm going to see if I can convince him to put his house half in my name, so that any wife could at most steal 25%. Ditto for any large investments. Won't save him from SS, but at least he can preserve some of his capital.


                      My daughters will do fine as well, but courts rarely take money from women, so I'm not too worried. They can marry as they see fit. If they are lucky maybe they can marry rich and take some loot if it falls apart.


                      Side point: If this involved dowries, presumably I would want my son married and not my daughters...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You could also teach your kids to make smart choices. To not fall for a charade of love and desire. To really see and understand their partner before marrying them. Hey maybe even live together (in a rental) before engagements to see what it is like to live with someone.

                        From my experience watching my siblings and friends and also my relationship and his past relationship, a lot of the problems people have relate to their inability to BE partners. One inevitably has some sort of resentment, one tries to control the other, one cheats or is abusive, or they married too young and as they grew they ended up different.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                          You could also teach your kids to make smart choices.

                          That's right wing thinking. Good people attain success through good actions, bad people attain crapiness through bad actions. I believe that luck plays a stronger role in our lives than most of us are willing to accept.


                          Obviously I will try to teach my kids to make smart choices. Divorce sucks. However, plan B is that I arrange affairs such that my son doesn't get wrecked in the event that he gets divorced.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Be careful though. My mom taught my brother how awful women have it with marriage and divorce and he’s kind of whipped in his relationship.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Janus View Post
                              For a variety of reasons, I'm fairly confident that my son will be a high-earning individual. Anyone he marries will likely be lower earning than him, likely substantially so.


                              Marriage could expose him to some serious financial losses. At the very least, I'm going to see if I can convince him to put his house half in my name, so that any wife could at most steal 25%. Ditto for any large investments. Won't save him from SS, but at least he can preserve some of his capital.


                              My daughters will do fine as well, but courts rarely take money from women, so I'm not too worried. They can marry as they see fit. If they are lucky maybe they can marry rich and take some loot if it falls apart.


                              Side point: If this involved dowries, presumably I would want my son married and not my daughters...
                              1- Not true at all. High income earners tend to marry in their income bracket. It's once they have kids that high income earning women drop out substantially out of the work force (or lean back). This is the same in everywhere, even Scandinavia.

                              https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/u...s-pay-gap.html

                              Unless your son is actively looking for a partner with low income, he likely will not marry or make babies with someone who is.

                              ****

                              2- Again, no. Men who are married make more money than men who are not.

                              https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploa...-Final_Web.pdf

                              ******

                              3-I would encourage my hypothetical daughter to work as hard as she can, keep her skills as relevant as possible, keep a foot in the workforce when she decides to have children and not to bank on a man's money in any context (he could die, he could lose his job, or end up being Charlie Rose).

                              Actively telling your daughters to 'marry up' reinforces sexist tropes we are trying (desperately) to overcome, on this forum and elsewhere.

                              Comment

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