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  • #16
    You were clear that the kid was 14, I just have reading comprehension issues. I apologize.

    Originally posted by Nadia View Post
    From what I’ve read parents are continuously reminded that they must adhere strictly to the order in respect to access times etc.
    I think the problem here is the disconnect between theory and reality. In theory, you must adhere strictly to the order. That is absolutely true if you ever plan to go to court and fight for something.

    The problem is that, as kids get older, court orders have less "oomph". There isn't some magical cutoff age. Slowly but surely, court orders directing parenting time become less important than the wishes of the child.

    As a rough guideline, invented by me just now (but slightly informed by case law)

    0-10 years old: Court order is the final word and must be followed
    10-12 years old: Court order is the final word and should be followed
    12-15 years old: Court order and wishes of the child need to be balanced. The more mature the child, the less the court order matters.
    16+ years old: Court order mostly irrelevant. Only wishes of the child matters.


    if a child is 14 as opposed to 5 is there an expectation parents are to be more flexible?
    I'm not sure if there is an expectation that parents will be flexible. I think rather it is more an unwillingness of the courts to override the wishes of the child.

    If that is indeed the case why doesn’t it work the other way around? What if a child at the age of 14 decides for whatever reason he doesn’t want to go to the other parent’s house for the whole weekend or that particular weekend because he has made plans with his friends; what then?
    The courts would be unlikely to intervene in that case. Maybe if there was a pattern of one parent promoting non-compliance, and a demonstration that there was some harm to the child occurring due to the unilateral change in parenting time (eg severe alienation).

    I think I've seen court orders on teens happen where the parent getting more time:
    A) was anti-vax or crazy in some other way
    B) allowed kid to not attend school
    C) had some serious substance abuse issues

    But yeah, the courts mostly care about young kids. They don't really do much about teens.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Tayken View Post
      ^^^ This.

      Now the real concern is when did the child turn 14? My interest is peeked by the age of the child being 14 and this happening. Lots of children start to swap houses at the age of 14. A parent who has been paying child support for 14 years may economically motivated to convince the child to move in with them. Some crafty parents will even offer up the child support they would get from the other parent as an "allowance" if they move... offer freedoms the other parent would never grant. Happens unfortunately all the time.
      have you come across any studies that discuss how to combat this type of 'grooming' (for lack of a better term)?

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      • #18
        Also- to the OP.

        Is it the lack of adherence to the schedule that is of concern? Or something more? The conflict with the paternal grandparents? Having to deal with your son's father?

        Like everyone else said- being that your son is 14, and he did call you to let you know he was going with dad...it seems like it's not a big deal? But it is bothering you.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
          have you come across any studies that discuss how to combat this type of 'grooming' (for lack of a better term)?
          It is a natural consequence of child support levels being completely out of synch with the marginal costs of raising a child.

          If I have the kids 30%, 50%, or 70% of the time, my main costs are roughly the same. I still need the same amount of "house", and I still need the same amount of "car". The other major expense (babysitting) is S7 and explicitly does not vary with parenting time. The only expense that changes drastically would be food. Even clothing expenses would not change all that much, since the outerwear is the major expense and I would be purchasing the same outwear at any parenting time level.

          I have 50% right now. For a few days extra a month, I would get about $15-20,000 in extra annual after-tax income. Let's say that works out to about 50 days a year. Unless I am spending $300 a day for extra food and activities (and that is every single one of those 50 days) then having those kids a few more days is incredibly profitable. Even better, that income is taken from the person I despise the most on the entire planet.

          I'm not even sure if I could come up with 50 days of $300 food and activities. There is only so much steak and lobster tail one can consume.

          In a nutshell, I am strongly incentivized to "groom" my kids to come and live with me, and the courts will not stop it, as discussed in this thread.

          (Now, as it turns out, despite hating their mother, I recognize that she provides some value to the children. As such, I don't play the grooming game. However, I understand why others do.)

          TLDR: There is no fix. The current system promotes grooming.

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          • #20
            drop the child support then? that's the answer?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
              drop the child support then? that's the answer?
              The bigger problem is the cutoffs. Child support should reflect actual percentages of parenting time, rather than an arbitrary 40% line in the sand.

              Treating parents who have 38% parenting time equivalent to parents who have 0% parenting time is crazy, and I think is the root cause of much family law custodial litigation.

              Imagine 3 parents:

              A: 0% parenting time
              B: 38% parenting time
              C: 62% parenting time

              Parent B is closer to parent C than parent A in parenting time, but gets treated just like parent A. Parent B gets no credit. Coincidentally, many parenting schedules put the NCP at roughly 38%.

              If getting the kids a few more days only marginally increased my net income, I would not be as incentivized. As I said though, under the current system, if I get the kids a few more days then CS would be set as if I had them 100% of the time, and my had them 0% of the time.

              That's a lot of money. I could get the proverbial steak and lobster tail dinners every single one of those extra days, and STILL have enough left over for a great vacation.
              Last edited by Janus; 02-19-2021, 03:12 PM. Reason: added ABC parenting example

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              • #22
                Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                Also- to the OP.

                Is it the lack of adherence to the schedule that is of concern? Or something more? The conflict with the paternal grandparents? Having to deal with your son's father?

                Like everyone else said- being that your son is 14, and he did call you to let you know he was going with dad...it seems like it's not a big deal? But it is bothering you.
                1. The lack of notification was the concern. Yes my son notified me when he was already on his way back to his fathers house. Would it have been nice to have get the heads up? Yes. (Especially since the last time the father exercised his mid week access was some years ago and we had fallen into a pattern of alternative weekends with grandparents confirming arrangements with me every other week). Was it worth getting worked up about it? In retrospect - No. Which is why I sent the father an email reminding him that if he could let me know next time that would be great.

                2. The kid is 14 and I think we need to take his wishes into consideration. His dad lives an hour away from us. I can just about get the kid out the door for school in time for his bus at 8.06 on a school day. He rolls out of bed at 7.45 and somehow manages to get dressed, brush teeth and grab the toast. I know there are kids out there who spend an hour getting to school and are totally ok. But is this kid going to be able to leave early enough to get to school via an hour of highway driving on a week in week out basis? Maybe.

                3. Regular access for our son (with the exception of the last 10 months has been has been alternative weekends with the Grandparents facilitating access by doing the pick up and drop offs. For two years this was the status quo. In the last 10 months that changed to grandparents just visiting on Sundays so that became the pattern. No one protested. I mean not a single text or email.

                4. I am hoping that we can navigate a way as a family with making sure our sons wishes are at the centre of any arrangement moving forward. Is this likely to happen given the high conflict etc. I don’t know.

                What I know now is that our son has selected his courses for high school. He is really excited about joining his friends at the local high school here. He plays every sport under the sun and is a natural athlete. He is vested in local clubs and community programs. He plays the trumpet (really well) and pre covid was playing in a local band. He has an awesome group of friends here and like any other typical teen spends hours on Xbox playing live games. I know all this doesn’t mean he won’t want to switch homes at some point. It’s always a possibility.
                Last edited by Nadia; 02-19-2021, 07:22 PM.

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                • #23
                  I doubt your ex would be successful arguing to change custody at this point. The only way to do it would be to convince kid and from the sounds of it he has a pretty set life where you are.

                  This was basically a case of “dad was a bit of a dick but not worth getting upset over”.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                  • #24
                    I agree with rockscan. And kids are perceptive, you've been there for your son and taken good care of him and been a very involved, loving and supportive parent. In the end I think it comes down to that more than anything else.

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                    • #25
                      I’ve been trying to find a solution that will work. Although court ordered access doesn’t begin until 6.30pm on Wednesdays and at 5.30pm on Fridays, If we go along with dad’s wishes his new access schedule (as relayed to the school) will look like this:

                      Wednesday 3.05pm to 8.45 am on Thursday next morning
                      Friday 3.05 to Monday 8.45am
                      Wednesday 3.05pm to 8.45 am on Thursday
                      Wednesday 3.05pm to 8.45am on Thursday next morning
                      Friday 3.05pm to 8.45am Monday morning

                      I spoke to our son about the schedule for next week and he said he is ok with Wednesday but isn’t sure about Friday. He asked me if I could keep him home on Friday. I told him that isn’t going to happen. As far as I know there is an expectation from dad that the school will enforce this schedule.

                      I should probably add with a reminder that the child in question is in Grade 8 and is 5ft 11 inches in height. I don’t see either parent being able to pick him up and fastening him in the seat of their vehicle. We have less than 4 months left at this school and are trying to navigate all this as best as I can. I am so exhausted.
                      Last edited by Nadia; 02-20-2021, 03:31 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Is it an order or an agreement? One has different ways of stating over the other. When was this all signed? Has dad sent you a request or this is just the school schedule?

                        I ask because a response depends on those factors. For instance, if it was an agreement and it was done 10 years ago then its reasonable to make a change. Not to mention if dad did make a request he has to let you consider it.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                          Is it an order or an agreement? One has different ways of stating over the other. When was this all signed? Has dad sent you a request or this is just the school schedule?

                          I ask because a response depends on those factors. For instance, if it was an agreement and it was done 10 years ago then its reasonable to make a change. Not to mention if dad did make a request he has to let you consider it.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          It is a request from Dad.
                          Not even a request really...more like “this is how things are going to be” regardless of any court orders or what has been happening in reality for the past 5 years.

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                          • #28
                            Then you can respond and say the order outlines the times and you will consider his request in the best interest of SON. Should he disagree with that, you will follow the agreement to the letter.


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                            • #29
                              What about the fathers insistence that the school facilitate his access by making sure his son is available to be picked up by him at 3.05pm. If access is not suppose to commence until 6.30pm therefore outside of school hours, can the school prevent the child from walking out with his friends? Or getting on the school bus if he wants?

                              This is such a crappy situation for our son now actually hoping school moves back to online by the end of this month. And this kid hated online and couldn’t wait to go back to in person school.
                              Last edited by Nadia; 02-20-2021, 07:37 PM.

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                              • #30
                                The school has nothing to do with it and he can’t arbitrarily make them accommodate him.

                                The agreement is between the two of you not you and the school.


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