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  #1  
Old 12-14-2017, 11:13 AM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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This is more of a vent post than anything hence the general chat thread.

My partner got the long awaited documentation he requested six months ago. It was supplemented by an offer to settle. His ex was so kind to send him this with a deadline of...Christmas.

Her offer is complete bullshit. She wants cs until kids are 25 regardless of whether they are in school. Full cs regardless of whether they are away at school. Monthly s7 expenses in the $600-700 range for the next eight years to cover school, medical expenses and any other activities the kids want to be in. She also wants retro cs for kid that was away at school to cover all her expenses she incurred for kid without receipts.

You can imagine my partners reaction which was further impacted by her list of documentation she is requesting including information about my finances and what I pay for etc.

Then he discovered that even though his kid was working, no income was reported to CRA. Needless to say all of my comments about how his kids are liars like their mother hit him. Hes so upset right now. Panicked that a judge will accept this crap and upset that I have been dragged into it. Also that its going to take thousands to fight this ridiculousness. My heart breaks for him right now and he keeps pushing me away. Always at the holidays. And this year we agreed to celebrate at home.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
This is more of a vent post than anything hence the general chat thread.

My partner got the long awaited documentation he requested six months ago. It was supplemented by an offer to settle. His ex was so kind to send him this with a deadline of...Christmas.

Her offer is complete bullshit. She wants cs until kids are 25 regardless of whether they are in school. Full cs regardless of whether they are away at school. Monthly s7 expenses in the $600-700 range for the next eight years to cover school, medical expenses and any other activities the kids want to be in. She also wants retro cs for kid that was away at school to cover all her expenses she incurred for kid without receipts.

You can imagine my partners reaction which was further impacted by her list of documentation she is requesting including information about my finances and what I pay for etc.

Then he discovered that even though his kid was working, no income was reported to CRA. Needless to say all of my comments about how his kids are liars like their mother hit him. Hes so upset right now. Panicked that a judge will accept this crap and upset that I have been dragged into it. Also that its going to take thousands to fight this ridiculousness. My heart breaks for him right now and he keeps pushing me away. Always at the holidays. And this year we agreed to celebrate at home.
She enjoys messing with him around the holidays. She just likes making him suffer - period. (I'm sure you both realize this by now!) She's running out of ways to accomplish it though, so she has to go to more extreme lengths with the ways that remain to her.

Give her a simple reply, acknowledging her offer, and telling her that her deadline is too soon, considering the holiday season and difficulty accessing lawyer time, and he will get back to her by the end of February or something, as the matter does not appear to be urgent, considering she waited six months. Then put it out of your mind until after the holidays. Meanwhile, send the kids your love and presents, and invitations to spend time with them. Always be consistent with that.

For emotions management, just roll your eyes at her predictable, brazen tactics, and focus on Christmas. You both know she's a harpy, so you shouldn't be surprised and react like this when she behaves like one. Have him filter her emails to a separate folder, and don't even look at it until January. He can have you scan the folder now and then to make sure there isn't something actually urgent about the kids.

You know all the legal stuff, and what will ultimately end up in your own reply and offer to settle. (though of course we can make suggestions if you like and help find CanLII references)

Does he have anyone to vent to besides you? Maybe a divorced dad's support group or counselling or something outside his relationship would be useful to him. He seems prone to catastrophizing and anxiety.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:48 AM
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I suggested he go talk to someone. I have a feeling he sought out one of his parents. His lawyer always sets him straight but hes not available.

I want to say I cant believe this person but I should. She has pulled so many stunts over the last six years that even his lawyer has no words and he sees crazy every day!! I remind myself that its simply her way of getting to him and upsetting us but it still hurts watching him try to reason through all this bullshit. He had just sent off messages to his kids for the holidays and then he discovers that they are participants in this crazy! To the point where they are lying too!

He’s worried she wont stop. Even if this goes to trial (and I have a feeling it will) she will appeal it. He thinks her attitude is let him spend money foolishly. But I remind him (as does his lawyer) that he can go for costs. And with this offer, his chances of costs went up exponentially.

This system is broken. How a person making over 100 grand thinks they can dictate to their ex husband over money they are not entitled to is beyond me. CS to 25 and monthly money for costs that haven’t been incurred!
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:40 PM
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Tayken Tayken is offline
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First off: Crazy Town is one crappy band.

Addressing the Crazy follows...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
My partner got the long-awaited documentation he requested six months ago.
All of it? Nothing magically left out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
It was supplemented by an offer to settle. His ex was so kind to send him this with a deadline of...Christmas.
It has been written about a few times here on the site but, to qualify for costs judges need offers to be open. Judges hate scare tactics so they often don't consider them when determining costs.

The Costs of Unreasonable Litigation - Toronto Family Law - Goldhart & Associates : Toronto Family Law – Goldhart & Associates

Quote:
Thanks to Justice Pazaratz this decision and strong precedent will stand as a reminder to lawyers and parties alike of the importance of taking reasonable positions in litigation, making thoughtful and severable Offers of Settle, and keeping the focus on the best interests of the children, whose lives and wellbeing are so often caught up, if not fully entangled, in their parents’ conflict.
Blah blah blah blah blah... That "offer to settle" is a waste of time and the court wouldn't consider it anways if they tried to use it for costs.

Quote:
47. To trigger full recovery costs a party must do as well or better than all the terms of any offer (or a severable section of an offer). Paranavitana v. Nanayakkara, [2010] O.J. No. 1566 (SCJ); Rebiere v Rebiere 2015 ONSC 2129 (CanLII), 2015 ONSC 2129 (SCJ); Scipione v Scipione 2015 ONSC 5982 (CanLII), 2015 ONSC 5982 (SCJ). The court is not required to examine each term of the offer as compared to the terms of the order and weigh with microscopic precision the equivalence of the terms. What is required is a general assessment of the overall comparability of the offer as contrasted with the order (Sepiashvili v. Sepiashvili, 2001 CarswellOnt 3459, additional reasons to 2001 CarswellOnt 3316 (SCJ); Wilson v Kovalev 2016 ONSC 163 (CanLII), 2016 ONSC 163 (SCJ).

Source: Jackson v Mayerle, 2016 ONSC 1556 (CanLII), par. 47, http://canlii.ca/t/gnlnj#par47, retrieved on 2017-12-14.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
Her offer is complete bullshit.
Then, use it as toilet paper and clean up the mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
She wants cs until kids are 25 regardless of whether they are in school. Full cs regardless of whether they are away at school. Monthly s7 expenses in the $600-700 range for the next eight years to cover school, medical expenses and any other activities the kids want to be in. She also wants retro cs for kid that was away at school to cover all her expenses she incurred for kid without receipts.
And for you to agree that the moon is made of spare ribs!



Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
You can imagine my partner's reaction which was further impacted by her list of documentation she is requesting including information about my finances and what I pay for etc.
Well, not really. I am going to be a bit "mean" here but, your partner should very well by now in all this know what constitutes a valid offer to settle. If your partner has an emotional reaction to an offer to settle your partner needs to start "understanding" the situation versus "reacting" to it.

It is time for you to take his head out of the sand and make him actually participate in this matter. You seem to be doing all the work.

Next, you can do something very interesting with the offer to settle that can impact the other party's Christmas way more. You can have your lawyer send over a letter that simply states that you acknowledge that the other parent has recognized your (rockscan) custody and access to these children and that you will be joining as a party to the case in recognition of their agreement to this fact in the recently served documentation.

The theory goes... Rule 18 only applies to parents and doesn't only when a claim for undue hardship is made. As no hardship claim has been made the other parent recognizes you as an in loco parent then. Why else would they ask for your financial disclosure??

You want the other parent to fly to the moon made of spare ribs... Just send that letter marked "without prejudice".

I have seen a very good (and expensive) lawyer do this. It was one of the best examples of "British style" legal slaps in the face ever. The other party went bonkers at the suggestion that their request for financial disclosure (which they are not entitled to) is an admission that the person (you) are a parent. LOL.

Their only reasonable response was... No that person is not a parent and not subject to paying child support. With a retraction of the request for disclosure.

Sometimes you do indeed need to fight fire with fire in these silly matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
Then he discovered that even though his kid was working, no income was reported to CRA. Needless to say all of my comments about how his kids are liars like their mother hit him. Hes so upset right now. Panicked that a judge will accept this crap and upset that I have been dragged into it. Also that its going to take thousands to fight this ridiculousness. My heart breaks for him right now and he keeps pushing me away. Always at the holidays. And this year we agreed to celebrate at home.
1. It doesn't really matter what was reported to CRA. This is where the concept of income imputed would be applied.

2. You are not involved. It is simply an emotional tactic. Play it right back at them. Or ignore it. You have no obligation to disclose your finances in this matter. You are not a party to the case. You are not a parent. But, if the other parent wants to defend against two parents and admit you are indeed a parent...

3. My heart doesn't break for him. He needs to put his pants on and deal with this. (a) By educating himself and (b) by participating in the matter rather than dumping it on you to deal with on this forum.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:42 PM
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... it still hurts watching him try to reason through all this bullshit.
When has trying to reason with bullshit ever been successful? Has Roy Moore and Donald Trump not taught us anything? You can't reason with bullshit. At best you can fight it... Most times you simply have to smell it, identify it as bullshit and ignore it.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:00 PM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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He was dealing with it. He was in contact with his lawyer after. His lawyer gave the best clap back we’ve seen so far.

Initially it was an upset to both of us. When you read an offer that basically says pay me $13,000 a year for the next eight years when his real obligation is more like $6000 its a shock. Plus all her other ridiculous demands defeated him. When he realized his kids were supportive in this bs he was heartbroken.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:16 PM
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I dont think you should blame the children if they have been alienated.

What is it about the Holidays that bring out the worst in people?

I would be looking at cheap last minute vaca plans to take off for the Holidays, put this behind you for a week or two then tackle it in the New Year.

I would hate to know his legal fees so far, you seem so knowledgeable can u self rep this?
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:32 PM
rockscan rockscan is offline
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His fees haven’t been so bad. He cant self rep, he’s too emotional.

The kids are old enough now to know better.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:51 PM
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I absolutely adore Tayken's advice: Next, you can do something very interesting with the offer to settle that can impact the other party's Christmas way more. You can have your lawyer send over a letter that simply states that you acknowledge that the other parent has recognized your (rockscan) custody and access to these children and that you will be joining as a party to the case in recognition of their agreement to this fact in the recently served documentation

then take Kate33's advice:
I would be looking at cheap last minute vaca plans to take off for the Holidays, put this behind you for a week or two then tackle it in the New Year.

I'm sure you will find a good cheap getaway place to go.... I think you still have time to FedX gifts to the kids.

Bon Voyage/Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:40 AM
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Sadly we had planned a vacation but weather and health impacted it. We are planning instead to spend our days doing fun stuff together. As my partner said “you love me in a way I have never been loved and you are more loyal and affectionate in your love than that woman ever was”.

I am just incredulous at the audacity of this woman. She has a lawyer advising her too! But as I and my partners lawyer pointed out, if we paid him tens of thousands he would tell us ridiculous things too. The ex has a bottomless pit of money at her disposal that will never show up on a financial statement.

My partner is also worried that the regional court where this will be heard is the home of the millionaires clubs etc. He thinks that judges will have pity for the silver spoon mommies. I keep trying to tell him it doesn’t matter where they are, the law is the law and no judge is going to order cs to 25 when the kid is doing nothing with their life and the payor makes less than 60 grand against moms 110 g.
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