Looking for viewpoints...

[earthmother1970]

Ex and new wife want to increase time with the two youngest children (11 and 7) from every other weekend ( which has been the set schedule since seperation in 2009) to now include every Tuesday as an overnight stay (currently I drop both girls off on Tuesdays after school and they are returned at approx. 8:30pm). Daughter aged 7 is adamant that she does not want to stay over on Tuesdays and Daughter aged 11 says she is conflicted because she does not want her dad to get mad at her if she says she does not want to add a Tuesday night stay. ( Dad has previously expressed annoyance and made statements about his hurt feelings to daughter over her anxiety about going to his house)

Daughter 11 suffers from an anxiety disorder and has only recently ceased having tearful panic attacks about going to her dad's house for the alternate weekends, and I do have some concerns about rocking the boat and regressing back to the panic attacks.

However, my concern is that if I express these concerns to my ex and suggest the extra overnight is not currently in the best interests of the children and that the situation should be revisted at a later date, he'll pull out the lawyer card again and threaten me with court ( which has happened on numerous occasions since the seperation).

So... opinions anyone?

[Berner_Faith]

I say give it a try. He will soon find out if he can manage it or not. Personally the children never should have been part of this discussion, it should have been something between you and your ex and then told to the children this is what is happening.

I am not minimizing your childs panic attacks, as my brother who is 12 went through 9 months of severe panic attacks after we lost our family home to a fire. He never wanted to leave my parents side, they couldn't go out for a night, he wouldn't go to school, friends, hockey anything, it was horrible to watch him go through. However, one thing we learned in counseling was that we cannot support his behaviour and make a big deal out of it. When my parents told him you are staying the night with your sister so we can do xyz, as much as he freaked, he stayed the night, it took almost a dozen times for him to get to the point where he wouldn't have a melt down, but we got to that point.

Sleeping over at Dad's house doesn't seem like it is anything new, they have been doing it since 2009. I would just tell your children that they will be spending Tuesday nights with Dad and that they will be just fine. Be the bigger person here and help your children get over their fear/anxiety, rather that play into it.

[Beachnana]

I noticed you said " he will pull out the lawyer card and threaten you with legal action. Has he done this before. Does he actually ever follow through or is it just a way to manipulate the situation.

He is quite at liberty to apply for a change in custody but I do believe he will need to show there has been a material change to warrant the change in the parenting access time.

Try not to react evey time he screams legal action. The children are likely too young to actually have much of a say in what happens

Just reply that you will be sticking to the Separation Agreement Schedule. Do not engage in lots of communication about this.

But be honest with yourself about whether or not this would not actually be a good thing to progress to and would actually be in the best interest of the girls to,spend more time with Dad. i am not sure its a good idea to allow children this young to determine what is in their best interest.

[Dadx5]

We have been told recently that midweek overnight is now the legal standard. He advised me to go back to court and reopen and let it go to trial if need be. If the children are used to spending nights at his home, one more night a week is not going to be that different for them.

I have one daughter that has panic attacks, and one whose mother used to try and claim did (different mothers) The judge came down hard on my ex who claimed panic attacks and she lost substantial ground because of it, even in a contempt trial. She was labeled as manipulative, and attempting parental alienation by the judge. For my daughter that has them (she lives with me) all she needs is a lot of reassurance from us that everything is ok.

If there is anyway to work with dad on this issue I really would.

[Serene]

Honestly I think this is BS. Did you protest when they started to go to school? When they had to go to the dentist the first time? This is their father. If anything, allow him to employ a professional to assist him in managing the "anxiety issues" your kid has. This is their father. Its in their best interests to spend more time with their dad given they don't see him enough already.

And by the way, a father wanting to spend more time with their kids is a good thing.

[blinkandimgone]

Honestly I think this is BS. Did you protest when they started to go to school? When they had to go to the dentist the first time? This is their father. If anything, allow him to employ a professional to assist him in managing the "anxiety issues" your kid has. This is their father. Its in their best interests to spend more time with their dad given they don't see him enough already.

And by the way, a father wanting to spend more time with their kids is a good thing.

I agree on all counts, great post Serene.

[stripes]

If the overnights are not currently in the best interests of the children, when will they ever be? It sounds like the question right now is not if the kids should have overnights with their father, but how to best initiate these overnights. A positive attitude and tone from Mom can go a long way - "I hope you have a great time at your dad's, it will be fun to sleep over on a school night", etc. Mom may have to grit her teeth to get the words out, but if she leads by example and indicates there's nothing to be fearful about, the kids' anxiety may be lessened. I think it's really important that Mom doesn't communicate her own mixed feelings or anxiety about this change to the kids.

I understand that the kids may be anxious - change of any kind can be anxiety-provoking - but this sounds like it is ultimately a change for the good. If the kids see a psychologist or social worker, s/he may be able to suggest some strategies for calming and reassuring the kids that everything will be fine.

[Dadx5]

Daughter aged 7 is adamant that she does not want to stay over on Tuesdays and Daughter aged 11 says she is conflicted because she does not want her dad to get mad at her if she says she does not want to add a Tuesday night stay. ( Dad has previously expressed annoyance and made statements about his hurt feelings to daughter over her anxiety about going to his house)

Daughter 11 suffers from an anxiety disorder and has only recently ceased having tearful panic attacks about going to her dad's house for the alternate weekends, and I do have some concerns about rocking the boat and regressing back to the panic attacks.

So... opinions anyone?

Why is Daughter aged 7 "Adamant" she doesn't want to stay overnight? You said the 11 year old is the one with anxiety but she is "conflicted" so not completely against staying overnight?

It is important to leave the children at that young of an age out of the discussions about sleeping over. They shouldn't even know its being discussed. A 7 year old should never be asked if she wants to stay over at dad's it puts her in the middle of parental decisions. However since you have asked her why is she so Adamant? Why is the Tuesday different then the Saturday?

[HammerDad]

This is a matter between you and your ex. Both of you should keep the kids out of it.

[earthmother1970]

Of course I realize that reponses will be somewhat biased and dependant upon personal experiences and that whether one is a mother, father, or a step-parent will be of influence, but thank you for all the responses so far.

To provide a bit further information:

Dad and step-mother were the ones who discussed additional overnight stays with daughters prior to any discussion with me - even though I have previously requested that matters dealing with the children be discussed and settled prior to any involvement of the children (because it is not the first time it has happened). When I told daughter 7 that she and sister 11 would be starting overnight Tuesday stays, she said she did not want to do so and when asked why, said "Children should be allowed to have some say in decisions". She's a rather precocious child, and also parroting statements told to her oldest sister (15) by dad. Daughter 11 says she would like to spend more time with dad, but does not want to stay additional nights, but does not want to express this to her dad for fear of angering him. As previously mentioned, dad has expressed annoyance (to both child and myself) over her tearfulness and additional anxious behaviours at pick up times, and has stated that he believes she behaves badly in order to punish him. Daughter 11 has expressed worries about talking to dad about her concerns or even asking certain questions for fear of angering him/ step-mother. For example: when she has asked what time (on day of return) she is going back to mom's house, she's been told she obviously just wants to leave because she doesn't like them. ( And I wish I were making that up.)

As for pulling out the lawyer card and threatening legal action - last occurence was in April of this year and involved son (17). Dad became angered because son refused to reveal the details of private discussions held with his counsellor or social worker. Dad called me with threats of going to his lawyers and pursuing legal action against counsellor and social worker. I explained about the confidentiality clause which only permits a social worker, counsellor, therapist, etc. to reveal the contents of private discussions with a client only if the client is a danger to themself, a danger to another, or with the express non-coerced permission of the client - that even as a parent, neither of us had an automatic right to any information shared by son with his counsellor or social worker. My supposition is that he probably went ahead and contacted his lawyers and was told the same thing by them, because he did not pursue the issue further with me. However, he did kick his son out of his house and give his bedroom there to his 15 year old sister. Dad has seen son twice since then, and although 11 year old sister was given an expensive electric piano for her birthday, son received no gift from father.

My compromise suggestion is going to be the addition of one overnight Tuesday (or possibly 2 overnight Tuesdays) per month, with a re-evaluation of the situation a few months hence. This seems like a reasonable resolution to me.

[Serene]

Dad and step-mother were the ones who discussed additional overnight stays with daughters prior to any discussion with me - even though I have previously requested that matters dealing with the children be discussed and settled prior to any involvement of the children (because it is not the first time it has happened).

So what? He is a parent to those children as much as you. Socializing the idea is not a crime. Besides, you've already made up your mind that you don't support any more overnights and you have a boat load of reasons to boot.

When I told daughter 7 that she and sister 11 would be starting overnight Tuesday stays, she said she did not want to do so and when asked why, said "Children should be allowed to have some say in decisions".

Why did you ask her why? Why not say "I think you spending more time with your dad is great! Its great to have an involved father and I think this is awesome!

When she said "children should be allowed to have some say in decisions" you should be following up with - Yes, I agree, you can decide whether you eat your meat before your potatoes, but your father and I will make decisions that we feel are in your best interests and you have two parents that love you and want to spend time with you... and you don't see your dad nearly enough. We have made these decisions because we believe they are in your best interests.

She's a rather precocious child, and also parroting statements told to her oldest sister (15) by dad.

Likely parroting statements she overhears her mom say too?

Daughter 11 says she would like to spend more time with dad, but does not want to stay additional nights, but does not want to express this to her dad for fear of angering him.

She wants to spend more time with her dad. Then why the heck isn't she? Why haven't you ensured this has happened already?
Maybe she fears angering/upsetting you if she spends more nights with her dad.

As previously mentioned, dad has expressed annoyance (to both child and myself) over her tearfulness and additional anxious behaviours at pick up times, and has stated that he believes she behaves badly in order to punish him.

He is discussing with you, one parent to another what he sees and his concerns. You can label it "annoyance" it still is what it is. I'd be annoyed too to be honest. It doesn't mean that he loves his children any less than you. It surely doesn't mean he should see them any less than you.

Daughter 11 has expressed worries about talking to dad about her concerns or even asking certain questions for fear of angering him/ step-mother. For example: when she has asked what time (on day of return) she is going back to mom's house, she's been told she obviously just wants to leave because she doesn't like them. ( And I wish I were making that up.)

That is what she told you was said. If you weren't there to hear it, consider it may not be the truth. Children are master manipulators and they will indeed manipulate both parents especially when they know they are at odds.

As for pulling out the lawyer card and threatening legal action - last occurence was in April of this year and involved son (17).

Family court is the rightful place to resolve matters that cannot be resolved between two parties.

Dad became angered because son refused to reveal the details of private discussions held with his counsellor or social worker. Dad called me with threats of going to his lawyers and pursuing legal action against counsellor and social worker. I explained about the confidentiality clause which only permits a social worker, counsellor, therapist, etc. to reveal the contents of private discussions with a client only if the client is a danger to themself, a danger to another, or with the express non-coerced permission of the client - that even as a parent, neither of us had an automatic right to any information shared by son with his counsellor or social worker. My supposition is that he probably went ahead and contacted his lawyers and was told the same thing by them, because he did not pursue the issue further with me.

And this is relevant to your daughters spending additional time with their father how? A great attempt to deflect, but I didn't fall for it...

However, he did kick his son out of his house and give his bedroom there to his 15 year old sister. Dad has seen son twice since then, and although 11 year old sister was given an expensive electric piano for her birthday, son received no gift from father.

Dad can spend his money as he chooses. Many children don't get gifts...
Another attempt to deflect... I again did not fall for it.
A 17 year old can manage his own relationship with his parents.

My compromise suggestion is going to be the addition of one overnight Tuesday (or possibly 2 overnight Tuesdays) per month, with a re-evaluation of the situation a few months hence. This seems like a reasonable resolution to me.

So...your kid has huge anxiety issues... is she in therapy?
What makes one overnight a month okay and not a regular and predictable schedules of every tuesday night?
I note you said that your daughter wants to spend more time with her dad and has told you that herself, and yet you are limiting her access to her father to potentially one additional overnight per month as a "compromise". Why do you feel the need to "compromise" that the child has a father who WANTS to spend time with her and SHE WANTS to spend MORE time with him? This isn't rocket science.

Employ the help of a professional. Pay for it yourself if you need to. If you care about your kids and their "best interests" then you'll promote a relationship with their father and step up to the plate and cater to ensure it happens.

Honestly, you can talk yourself in circles. In my opinion you already have. I think you have weak rationales on why you are doing the right thing. Dad isn't abusing her, he is trying to be more involved with his kids. Step off your soap box and let it happen already. Stop creating barriers unnecessarily. Take up a hobby while they are with dad.

[Serene]

My compromise suggestion is going to be the addition of one overnight Tuesday (or possibly 2 overnight Tuesdays) per month, with a re-evaluation of the situation a few months hence. This seems like a reasonable resolution to me.

I almost forgot... what exactly are you going to "re-evaluate"? What standard or tools of measurement are you going to use?
What are your qualifications to make this evaluation?

This post irritates me.

[Berner_Faith]

Dad and step-mother were the ones who discussed additional overnight stays with daughters prior to any discussion with me - even though I have previously requested that matters dealing with the children be discussed and settled prior to any involvement of the children (because it is not the first time it has happened).

That's unfortunate, but it seems you had a discussion as well that was not great.

When I told daughter 7 that she and sister 11 would be starting overnight Tuesday stays, she said she did not want to do so and when asked why, said "Children should be allowed to have some say in decisions". She's a rather precocious child, and also parroting statements told to her oldest sister (15) by dad.

It doesn't matter why, it was a decision you and Dad made. Do the children get out of going to Grandma's when they don't want too? To school?

Daughter 11 says she would like to spend more time with dad, but does not want to stay additional nights, but does not want to express this to her dad for fear of angering him.

Are you sure she isn't just telling you this? Maybe her fear is how you will react if she actually wants to spend more time with Dad. From your posts it doesn't sound like you are on board with the whole thing either.

As previously mentioned, dad has expressed annoyance (to both child and myself) over her tearfulness and additional anxious behaviours at pick up times, and has stated that he believes she behaves badly in order to punish him. Daughter 11 has expressed worries about talking to dad about her concerns or even asking certain questions for fear of angering him/ step-mother. For example: when she has asked what time (on day of return) she is going back to mom's house, she's been told she obviously just wants to leave because she doesn't like them. ( And I wish I were making that up.)

Yup, unfortunately it happens... my fiance's ex apparently tells their children that they don't love her and stuff too when they get excited to go to Dad's. Doesn't mean they don't love their children, to me it means they don't know how to deal with their own personal issues

As for pulling out the lawyer card and threatening legal action - last occurence was in April of this year and involved son (17). Dad became angered because son refused to reveal the details of private discussions held with his counsellor or social worker. Dad called me with threats of going to his lawyers and pursuing legal action against counsellor and social worker. I explained about the confidentiality clause which only permits a social worker, counsellor, therapist, etc. to reveal the contents of private discussions with a client only if the client is a danger to themself, a danger to another, or with the express non-coerced permission of the client - that even as a parent, neither of us had an automatic right to any information shared by son with his counsellor or social worker. My supposition is that he probably went ahead and contacted his lawyers and was told the same thing by them, because he did not pursue the issue further with me.

He is within his right to consult a lawyer any times he feels he needs to. Maybe he did or maybe he didn't. Shouldn't really matter to you either wya

However, he did kick his son out of his house and give his bedroom there to his 15 year old sister. Dad has seen son twice since then, and although 11 year old sister was given an expensive electric piano for her birthday, son received no gift from father.

When I was 17 I was living on my own and going to collage. I never stayed in campus, I rented a 2 bedroom house myself for 2 years while in college. I went to my parents maybe one weekend a month and in the summer more often, but my parents didn't keep my bedroom for me. A mutual friend needed a place to stay and they rented out my room.

My compromise suggestion is going to be the addition of one overnight Tuesday (or possibly 2 overnight Tuesdays) per month, with a re-evaluation of the situation a few months hence. This seems like a reasonable resolution to me.

Why do you feel this is a fair compromise? What are you compromising? I would say if you would like to "seem" fair, I would offer every other Tuesday night. However, who gets to decide if the situation is going well or not? You? Dad? Children? What if you and Dad don't agree?

A better compromise would be to start with the every other Tuesday nights for 2 months and in the third month add a third Tuesday and then in the 4th month add every Tuesday in the month. Your children are not that young, they can make the transition easily. As mentioned by another poster, the very common every other weekend includes one week day overnight.

Unfortunately you do not have valid reasons to deny. If it went to court it is hard to say how a Judge would decide as status quo may be on your side, however I do think you would look unreasonable to denying.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Daughter aged 7 is adamant that she does not want to stay over on Tuesdays and Daughter aged 11 says she is conflicted because she does not want her dad to get mad at her if she says she does not want to add a Tuesday night stay.

Why on earth would a 7 year old be adamant about not spending time with her own father? What occurred to make her feel this way?

As for the 11 year old...I think when you have a kid with anxiety (again, I wonder what the reason is for this as well), you have to separate out what things she can avoid in life to help with the anxiety and what things she needs to use coping skills to deal with because its something that she should work through.

I would classify being with her own father as something she needs to learn to cope with until she settles down. I think to coddle her because you don't want her over his house is a situation that you might temporarily "win" but in the long run is going to blow up in your face. Spending time with her dad is a normal, healthy thing and that she's having anxiety about it is indicative of her being manipulated.

When I told daughter 7 that she and sister 11 would be starting overnight Tuesday stays, she said she did not want to do so and when asked why, said "Children should be allowed to have some say in decisions".
...She's a rather precocious child, and also parroting statements told to her oldest sister (15) by dad.

I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. You're telling me that a 7 year old said this because she's precocious? I have two girls...and 7 year old girls want to be with both parents unless they have a very valid reason not to. Either abuse situations or the other divorce parent (you) coaching negative feelings and behaviors toward the other parent and his new wife.

As far as parroting statements by her father, I really hope you are not interrogating these kids about visits over their dad's house. They're barely ever there, you really should respect the little bit of private time he has with his own children.

These kids feel very strongly negative about their own father. Unless there's some serious abuse going on, there's no reason for this aside from them being brainwashed/alienated.

His request for more access is valid and its obvious these children would benefit from spending more time with their father. If you don't allow it...frankly, I hope he does take you back to court. A judge might be very concerned about the fact that these children seem alienated from their dad.

Its in your children's best interest to feel closer to their father, to want to spend time with him and to have a healthy relationship with him. This is especially true of girl children. I think you need to check your behavior on this issue. Again, even if you get what you want...in the long run, you're going to pay for keeping these kids away from their dad. Parents that alienate their kids end up having a lot of problems as their kids get older. You aren't doing yourself any favors.

[Pursuinghappiness]

However, my concern is that if I express these concerns to my ex and suggest the extra overnight is not currently in the best interests of the children and that the situation should be revisted at a later date,

When I told daughter 7 that she and sister 11 would be starting overnight Tuesday stays, she said she did not want to do so and when asked why, said "Children should be allowed to have some say in decisions".

By the way, these types of statements are bothersome.

The 7 year old should have a voice....one that she can express to a valid, impartial judge....which you are not.

The best interest of the children should be assessed....to a valid, impartial judge....which you are not.

Your posts lead me to wonder if you are in that category of parent that think you are the almighty gatekeeper of the children that knows better than anyone else...including their other parent...about what is the best thing for these children.

Given that your 7 year old is building up a healthy dislike of her own father and your 11 year old is suffering anxiety over normal life situations...I think its good that you're here asking for other inputs on this visitation issue. Its clear that you are biased against these children's father in a way that isn't necessarily working in the kids' best interest.

I just hope you're not here to get validation for denying fair access to the other parent and simply ask about whether he has a valid court claim. I truly hope you're here to consider that you might be doing the wrong thing.