Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What Would You Do?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What Would You Do?

    My turn for opinions.
    Without covering the details of the past 12 years, which is how long we have been suffering the torment of the FL system.
    Today a registered letter arrived from the Judge’s chambers from the judge who presided at the last settlement conference.

    A little background of the last 2-3 years.
    March 2005 my husband was getting prepared to exercise access, which was half of the scheduled break. He took the time off work so he wouldn’t be working while his daughter was here. Arranged for someone to drive with him, as the order stipulates a second driver must be present in the event he was to do a turn around trip, “for safety sake”. This alone, as many may understand is hard, as who the heck wants to sit in a car for 13 hrs??? NB: I can no longer make these kinds of trips as I am suffering from an aggressive form of degenerative disc disease. On the day prior, the ex sends an email saying that he should not come as she does not feel it is in the daughter’s best interests at this time to spend time with him, as she is demonstrating extreme anxiety. (this has happened on numerous occasions, she feels it's not a good time or in the child's best interests). So we ask her, what is going on, she refers us to some letter purportedly by a psychologist treating the daughter. We advise no such letter was received, we ask for details about the daughter as we are getting extremely worried and tried to convey our concern in the email, as the many attempts at telephoning to speak directly to the mother go unanswered etc. She again simply refers us to the letter claiming the psychologist told her it was sent to us. Yet offers no info on the daughter. We reply yet again, more urgent than before that we did NOT get any letter or any correspondence what so ever from anyone treating the daughter, please tell us what is going on. This goes on back and forth, we know the ex is home, she’s replying to the email as fast as we write them but no one answers the telephone, no one answers the phone at her parents or any other location we can think of. Dad goes anyway, at least to figure out what is going on. He arrives, no one is home at the ex’s, no answer at the in-laws, no answer at the lawyer’s office or home, ultimately dad comes home no contact, no daughter. We do the only thing we can do, take her to court for contempt of a court order. As many may know it takes us several months to get before a judge, during which ZERO contact, and Zero response from the ex to our inquiries. The judge finds the mother intentionally kept the daughter from the dad, and knew he did not receive any correspondence from anyone regarding the daughter and intentionally kept vital information about the daughter from the dad. She was told she could not go against any court order on her own or on the say so of any psychologist or medical professional alone, that if she honestly felt it was of an emergency basis why did she wait 9 months to claim it an emergency and request now for a variance. Of course nothing happened to the mother, but the judge ordered a psychological assessment to rule out PAS. Visitation was to take place that night between the dad and daughter; the next 3 visitations were to be in the child’s city unsupervised and to resume to the existing order there after. AND if and only if the mother could unequivocally prove that the father was a threat then she may bring the issue back to court for a variance, until then she is to abide by the order as it is very clear and concise. Access did not take place that night as the second estranged husband felt the daughter wasn’t ready and he wasn’t going to force her. No visitation, I know we could have taken her back to court, but that would have taken months, we thought better to let sleeping dogs lie and get on with the assessment as we know that will prove the truth. The assessment took over a year to complete due to the distances between us and the many schedules it had to accommodate. The mother did not provide the daughter for the assessment as ordered NB the assessment was designed to rule out PAS and see how the child interacts with dad and our family.
    During all of this, monthly visitation did not resume. Dad made numerous requests for visitation. The daughter only wanted the dad present, so he agreed, and then the mother changed her mind the last minute after dad made arranged time off. This went on for a year, the ex’s lawyer sent several requests for relinquishment of visitation until the child and the child alone felt she was ready. Dad advised he would not force visitation but also he would not sign anything that would permanently change visitation.
    Feb 2007 went to a SC expecting judge to see the psycologists report and see we were no threat nor have ever been a threat, that all the child’s anxiety was “learned from something she had seen or heard.” “in my professional opinion Mr. & Mrs. X have never harmed or been a cause for any of the child’s fears….” The judge literally refused to read or except any documents, looked at dad and said, how to you plan on attending counselling and reintroducing the daughter into your life via strict visitation?” She adjourned and told dad to let her know his plan and set a trial for Feb 2008, but advised she would be available should he not want to take that route and take supervised visitation after counselling.

    This “basically” gets us to present, the letter from the judge who has offered a move forward of the trial set for Feb 2008, to Nov. 2007 with a reply expected by next week.

    Up until today all the weekly email, monthly correspondence via regular mail and contact with the daughter’s teachers & school have gone unacknowledged or answered. No replies, no emails, no telephone calls, ZERO. Dad is rightfully numb to the whole FL BS. He has emotionally given up, reserved to let sleeping dogs lie, and if the daughter does not want him in her life, (she is 12 now and has been awarded her own council), then he say’s he is done.

    I think he should continue to fight, at least in the event the daughter grows up and finally sees this for what it is, and asks him why he didn’t fight to see her. I honestly feel PAS is happening but not from us, perhaps even her grandparents as they have literally stood up during court, screaming that the dad was no good and should not see the child and should disappear from their daughters’ life. Should he call it quits and wait for the daughter to seek him out in adulthood?

  • #2
    FL,

    Dad should go for trial of the issues in Nov 2007 as offered. I'm surprised the Judge sent a letter. Did you ever receive a copy of the endorsement page of the last SC?

    lv

    Comment


    • #3
      This is a very sad story. Who is the winner here? Certainly not the daughter. Very sad.

      Comment


      • #4
        Lv

        yes received the SC judges recommendations. Hard to read.
        Said that she was available for dad to contact for a three way phone meeting to review his schedule of counseling and supervised access, or go to trial in Feb 2008. One page, one paragraph very cold

        Comment


        • #5
          The thread is titled "What Would You Do?"

          I wouldn't be in this position in the first place - my fight for access would have started long before this type of situation but, if thrust into this, I would do like LV mentions and fight in Nov 07 with everything I had.

          When I'm 75 and reflecting on my life I won't remember how much $$ I made or lost; I'll remember the difference I made in people's lives - especially my childrens'.

          Comment


          • #6
            dadoftwogirls

            I agree, but we are positive the daughter will know the truth one day. Unfortunately she will loose so much as I feel he is the ultimate dad, and his daughter is his world.

            Comment


            • #7
              dadoftwogirls

              we did have access, unlimited provided 72 hrs notice, then she started making things up once she remarried, I believe PAS to get dad out of daughters life. Had lawyer ask to have dad relinquish rights but keep paying support he refused. Went to court had access more clearly defined for all access situations. But when the child is manipulated in this manner it is hard to hear what she is saying and we know it's not really her feelings but what she has been wrongly told. We have "always" gone back to court to fight, always done right by her, but when you hear her tell dad I don't want to see you any more. It is very heartening.

              Comment


              • #8
                p.s.

                it has"never" been about the money!

                Comment


                • #9
                  FL,

                  Go for trial. Since the hiatus of no access, a graduated regime may be appropriate but not used as a tool by one parent to deny a meaningful relationship. See this case on the judicial view a graduated regime for much younger children

                  K.J.B. v. S.M., 2006 ONCJ 87 (CanLII),(two children - ages 2, 4) http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...2006oncj87.pdf


                  It is noted that the child is on the verge of being a teenager and therefore should be able to handle significant change in their life. Some examples of change every year they face - new teacher, new classroom, new class mates, new routine. The list is endless. No doubt the child knows their father, but this is no worse than having a family reunion with a long lost family member.

                  Read this thread with particular attention to the Johnson-Steeves v. Lee case. It may motivate "Dad" to not give up in his quest to have a meaningful relationship with his daughter. This case is somewhat relevant to your situation as a geographical distance between the parties and a clear sign by the courts that its great news to have a father!

                  http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/s...gue+convention

                  lv
                  Last edited by logicalvelocity; 04-28-2007, 07:19 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    FL,

                    It also appears that the one parent is rejecting the correspondence and not replying to phone calls etc as once documented would create a evidence paper trail which appears for the alienation.

                    Start sending everything by registered mail where they have to sign for same.
                    If they continue to reject, will infer something all in itself.

                    lv

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Lv

                      Thanks.
                      You offer sound advice not based in emotional response that was what I was looking for when I posted.

                      We always send registered mail, NB: we do not deal with FRO as ex realized it took too long to change the CS amount each year if our income changed, we adjust at year end with tax season and she never has to bat an eye.
                      ex. One month I send child support cheque with a card and hand written letter from dad. I ask if the daughter got the letter, she sent an email advising it did not arrive, I didn't imply in the email this was odd because the letter was in the her CS envelope. Then the next week I get email notification from Canada post letter was signed for. A week after cheque is cashed, so I asked again, she said there was no letter. You see, I also photo copy all I send, right down to the envelope with the postage before sending. I live in a rural area and know the post master, she always conferms the contents for me and has said she would sign any documentation confirming contents, I had this type of documentation for the SC but when the judge refused to even review them we were screwed, another case of the court doing what they want not what is right!

                      But I still thank you very much for your support in this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        FL,

                        It is unfortunate but it appears the other parent is using the distance involved to undermine the relationship between Dad and daughter.

                        Continue documenting all the discrepancies and definitely move the matter to trial. Involve the OCL to represent the child if possible and call any experts involved as witness's that can push the child's views.

                        Additionally, work on a effective parenting plan to facilitate a graduated regime. To start Perhaps Dad and yourself could spend a week in a hotel with the daughter and yes have Mom pay half of cost. Its just an idea considering the distance. Once this threshold is met, push for more blocks of time holidays, summer months, March break and most importantly never give up and never walk away.

                        lv

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lv

                          The mom offered a few hours this July (as her idea of summer visitation), in a letter from her lawyer, at beginning of the month. We responded immediately via reg. mail to the same. Accepted the offer even if it were an hour, dad more than willing to make the drive. Mom does not want me anywhere near the child, will not allow visitation if I am even in the same city. IE should I decide to acompany dad so he doesn't have to drive alone, and she some how finds out I made the trip she indicated the visitation would be canceled, as “I am not to accompany father on the trip, nor be in the vacinity of said visitation” and aluded that future visitation would be off if she found out after the fact. We agreed to all her terms prior to this few hours taking place, ie counciling to have taken place prior to said visit etc.

                          I feel, from what the judge said at last SC, she agrees with the views of EX and would also rule I not be present during visits. NB we offered in the beginning of this particular struggle, the first three visits to take place in city without me present, then next three visits with whole family present still in the city, then to resume to court order there after, I.E. every third weekend, extended to long weekend if holidays fall on dad's weekend. Alternate Christmas's, half march break and two 2-week blocks in summer to be extended to full summer at daughter's willingness. Is this unreasonable given the circumstances? She seems to think it is, does not want daughter around me “period” although we have spent lilterally thousands on experts to prove I and whole family are not a threat in any form, (most recently $20,000 on psycologists court ordered assessment). Do you think judge will order half accomidation cost should he stay in the city? And should she not at least read the court ordered assessment?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            FL,

                            take what ever access is offered even if it is petty and yes make the trip if your health permits. If mom denies the child's access because of this, really demonstrates how vindictive she is and further questions her ability to parent the child effectively.

                            Example: Mom has no problem having her partner involved with the child so whats the difference. Evidence like that will go a long way.

                            I would also seek reimbursement of all the access travel by way of motion if a significant distance is traveled and a last minute denial occurred.

                            The problem during a SC is that any information submitted is not sworn. At an SC, the Judge would consider where the child is presiding presently. Remember the golden rule of stability.

                            Access is the right of the child. That being so if the child's access was occurring in a supervised access centre; mom would be expected to contribute to costs along with participating in the child's access travel to the centre. Therefore, I conclude that access costs and travel is both parent's parental responsibility and is the child centered approach.

                            If you proceed by trial, submit the parenting assessment and further call the professional as a witness.

                            I think you could also proceed by way of motion to to get some access occurring in the interim. November is a long way off.

                            I think Mom has significant explanation to give why all the unnecessary restricted access.

                            It is the child's right to have a meaningful relationship with the father for who they are and in their own environment. The late Sopinka J. spoke of this principle in the SCC case of Young v. Young and is often referenced to is other cases. For instance paragraph 26 of:

                            D.D. v. A.S.S., 2004 BCPC 56 (CanLII), (18 month old)
                            http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc...2004bcpc56.pdf


                            In the above, the issues were set down for trial, However, the above case is an interim motion (paragraph 3) to have some interim access in place before trial.


                            lv

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by logicalvelocity
                              FL,

                              take what ever access is offered even if it is petty and yes make the trip if your health permits. If mom denies the child's access because of this, really demonstrates how vindictive she is and further questions her ability to parent the child effectively.
                              Originally posted by logicalvelocity
                              I would also seek reimbursement of all the access travel by way of motion if a significant distance is traveled and a last minute denial occurred.
                              Will send acceptance letter to Judge today via purolator for move ahead of trial date and accept also the T.M.C. in June.

                              Did not realize were we entitled to ask for costs for attending for access and she had changed her mind, this has happened on countless occasions and yes we kept fuel receipts etc. ALSO did not know mother responsible for half accommodations when she insisted access be in city etc.

                              Originally posted by logicalvelocity
                              Example: Mom has no problem having her partner involved with the child so whats the difference. Evidence like that will go a long way.
                              Did not think of this, thanks.



                              Originally posted by logicalvelocity
                              The problem during a SC is that any information submitted is not sworn. At an SC, the Judge would consider where the child is presiding presently. Remember the golden rule of stability.
                              Yes I knew this, but expected judge to at least review something, anything!!!


                              Originally posted by logicalvelocity
                              If you proceed by trial, submit the parenting assessment and further call the professional as a witness.
                              Absolutly!

                              Originally posted by logicalvelocity
                              I think you could also proceed by way of motion to to get some access occurring in the interim. November is a long way off.
                              Did not know this either, you are a very informative person, I guess it helps when you are outside looking in?


                              Thanks again.
                              FL

                              Comment

                              Our Divorce Forums
                              Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                              Working...
                              X