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  • Ex wants to move out of Province

    Looking for comments and suggestions. I am self represented and want others opinion on my Ex trying to move with my 13 and 15 year old from Toronto to Edmonton to be with her just recently engaged fiancée.

    Background:

    Ex and I were on vacation 5 years ago and met another couple from Edmonton we hung out with for the week. Shortly after that the ex and the other husband began an online romance that over a year tuned into something more. I found out and the marriage ended and we began a bitter divorce. The ex continued the long distance relationship with the other man in Edmonton and he eventually left his wife and divorced also. He has 2 kids similar in age to mine.

    We have been separated 4 years and officially divorced as of June 2011. Ex has introduced my kids to the boyfriend and had them travel to Edmonton about 2 years ago to meet his 2 children. They have as a group been on 4 - 5 vacations together in the last 2 - 3 years.

    Our custody is joint, the kids reside with my ex who lives less than 1 km from me. I have the typical, every Wed and every other weekend, holidays alternate, type access. However, I see my kids much more than that. I pick up my youngest from school every day, bring my 15 year old to her tutor every Tuesday and because they are both playing for Rep travel basketball and soccer teams, the ex and I have to shuttle them around to practices and games all week. I see the kids on almost a daily basis. When the ex travel to be with her boyfriend I have the kids for extended periods of time.

    Now the problem: The ex is now engaged and plans on moving to Edmonton. She has told the kids of this and has supposedly gave them the option to move with her or stay with me. They are sad but want to move with her. When I ask them they say, "don't' worry Dad, mom will send us back for holidays and summers. You will get to see us lots" In my opinion, while given a choice, they really do not know what they are signing up for here. The ex has painted everything to be like candy canes and lolly pops. The fact is they will get settled, make friends and not want to travel back to Ontario regularly. Furthermore, they have only been around this guy and his kids on vacations and it will be a lot different living with them then being on a beach together.

    They are being up rooted from their family, friends, community and all their support system to go to some place they have barely visited to live with people they barely really know. They will also have to give up the activities they currently do at a high competitive level because the demands and commitment will be difficult if they are spending extended time in Ontario.

    What are my chances to fight this people!!!???

  • #2
    Wow...

    I think your kids are of the age where what they "want" will hold some weight in any legal proceeding. The 15 year old for sure. I know it's easy to get caught up in the "why doesn't he move here" situation for the sake of the kids, but that's not really the point. I'd be completely freaking out if my ex wanted to do this.

    Is it at all feasible that you move out there? I know it's a bit extreme, but it's actually worked in my brother's case. He got a job opportunity in Alberta and moved out there. His daughter, when she was an early teen, decided she wanted to live with him...and she made the move from Toronto to Red Deer. Her mother looked for a job out there and found one that was better than the one she had here so she moved as well. In their case it was a win-win situation...and my niece had both her parents close by. They are both happily re-married and they get along great.

    If you are in a relationship here in Ontario, then I can see how that would complicate matters greatly...

    Very tough situation...

    Comment


    • #3
      I would send my ex a registered letter stating that you recently became aware of her intention to move and that you do not believe it is in the children's best interests and that you do not consent to the relocation of the children.

      She needs 1 of 2 things to move the kids:

      1. your consent; or
      2. a court order.

      In order to get a court order she will have to satisfy the courts that the move is in the best interests of the children - case law = Gordon v Goertz

      Should she attempt to relocate with the children without your consent or an order providing that she may relocate the children, you immediately go to court and seek an emergency order returning the children to their familiar location and your custody.

      You have years of status quo on your side. What you have against you is the age of the kids and that their wishes will likely be heard by the courts. That doesn't mean the court will immediately follow the kids wishes, just that their wishes will be taken into consideration, along with their reasoning and their maturity level.

      You ex, in consideration for you allowing the move, should be offering you:

      1. reasonable parenting time. 1/2 if not all of summer, each March Break, 1/2 of Christmas break etc. You should not lose parenting time just because she wants to be with Mr. Wonderful.

      2. how will she pay for the kids transportation for your parenting time. You shouldn't bear the burden of costs. She should either a) pay for the travel costs of the kids or b) waive an amount equal to the costs of travel in c/s payments and then you pay for the kids plane tickets etc.

      3. telephone and skype conversations. She will need to buy a webcam etc.

      But these are things you can negotiate and go from there.
      Last edited by HammerDad; 11-22-2012, 02:02 PM. Reason: typo

      Comment


      • #4
        HammerDad, I do not need to send a letter, she already had her lawyer do that too me in Sept. This week I was served with the Motion request and hearing date. I was somewhat blind sided. Although She tried in the beginning of our separation to move with the kids, I fought and spent almost every dime I had to prevent it. I lost my house, business, savings. I thought after that she would wait till the kids were done high school....at least that is what I had hoped.

        I concerns are many.

        1) I fight spend a crap load of money and they go anyway because I loose.
        2) I let them go, and although the idea of making up lost access time by getting extended summers and holidays sound like a good compromise, the fact is they will make friends and get involved in sports like they are now and it will be difficult for me to see them.... essentially the relationship will be broken.
        3) They go and decide they don't like it and want to come back. Even if I have an agreement with the ex that says, should this occur they should be allowed to come back she may decide to fight me on it and now I am in a legal battle in Alberta.
        4) I work for myself in a job that would not easily be as successful out there. All my contacts and business developed over the last 18 years would be thrown away. It would take several years before I would be making the money I am here, if at all. Not that it is a lot,$60-75k per year, but it is a the only work I have experience in and at 45 I'm too old to start a new career.

        When I first found out 3 years ago she was having an affair I lost virtually everything fighting her in our divorce to prevent her from moving . In the last year I have finally saved up some money and was hoping to look at buying a house. Even if I represent myself, there is a possibility the court could award her cost should I loose. Also, there is a strong likelihood the court may order the kids have an assessment to determine their true feeling on the move. These assessments from what I understand are not cheap.

        Comment


        • #5
          You sound somewhat defeated already. You need to firm your resolve. This is about your relationship with your kids. You cannot be an effective parent 4000km away.

          You are right, that there is no guarantee that you will succeed. You will need to provide caselaw that is on your side. You will have to show that you are an involved part of their lives and that the majority of their extended family reside local to them now.

          Essentially, what you will have to prove is that it is in the kids best interests if they stay put vs move. If the new guy is rich and they are able to benefit from his income and have a better life....well, that it is a notch to go. But if it means your relationship will suffer, that is a notch to stay. Their friends and activities will likely be a wash, as they will likely get registered in stuff out there and make new friends. The family part is important.

          There are also no guarantees that should they be allowed to move that you would be hit with costs. You make reasonable offers to either have them stay with you or should they move that you get maximum parenting time possible and working out a fair means of dealing with travel expenses.

          If she makes reasonable offers you will likely have to consider them. But you don't have to accept. You are in a tough situation mainly due to the age of the kids. The 15y/o wants will likely carry a lot of weight.

          I guess it really boils down to whether or not you can manage the relationship should they move. Yes, their lives will change and there will be times they won't want to come due to commitments etc. But there is also a chance they will realize it isn't all candy-canes and lollipops and want to come back to be with you.....

          For now, speak to the kids. Let them know that their lives will change and that you love them no matter what. Then work with the ex to figure out what is fair from there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hammerdad....you are right on all counts here!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by iceberg View Post
              Yes but I don't agree with the part "if the new guy has lots of money" statement. So if he can provide them trips to hawaii and Europe that is a notch to go? OP has a good income.
              One may not like it, but trust me, if the lifestyle the custodial parent will be substantially increased due to the move, either by new job or spouse, it will be a factor.

              It is the best interests of the kids test. If the kids get a more affluent lifestyle due to new spouses income, a court may find it in their best interests....

              Not saying I agree.....as I personally don't......but a judge would likely have to take it into consideration when making their decision.

              Comment


              • #8
                The new guy owns a Collison Repair shop thst does about 2million a year in sales. He makes probably $250-300k per year and a lot of thst is cash and probably not declared. He told me this when we met on vacation. He does now have support to pay his ex for the 2 children of his previous marriage. He charges all the business expense running the business on his credit card so he can get points to fly back to Ontario or fly my ex to meet him for long weekends. My ex filing indicates that he owns a "spacious semi-detached home that had been renovated to accommodate all the children and provide each their own bedroom" ....AKA my kids will be living in the basement.

                Can I request any financial information on him? I know I am responsible for support for my kids but she has a job here that she will be giving up to move there. Can I not ask for some kind of proof that he will be able to provide and make up for the difference from what I am paying and what my ex will be giving up to move. I am sure her lawyer will argue she will get a job but the fact is she doesn't have one there yet.

                Also! what are the chances of a decision being made on the Motion to Change at the first hearing? It is scheduled to be heard the beginning of Feb. I am just preparing my response now since I was just served Monday. I think I have some good arguments to put in my Response form.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Propose that she move but the children stay with you, in their familiar town and school with their established friendships. They can fly out to visit their mother as often as she is willing to pay for it, and she can certainly afford to fly back to visit more often than you could ever fly there. Impute an income to her of the same as she makes here, and have her pay you full table child support on it.

                  This way, the mother gets to live with the boyfriend, the children are not uprooted from their entire lives, you have more money to provide a more affluent lifestyle for the children and don't have to see them any less due to their mother's decision.

                  I know at 13 and 15 they are old enough to have their wishes taken into account, but that doesn't mean they get final say. Plus, they may also be telling their mother what they think she wants to hear, and if you asked them the same question, they'd say they didn't want to move.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Rio, That plan is my wish but doubtful she will agree to it

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sydmoe: Totally empathize with you. Lousy and very hurtful situation.

                      A semi-detached place in Edmonton? I live in Edmonton and if the guy makes significant money as you stated he would be able to afford a much better place. You can PM and let me know the add and I can tell you what sort of area it is if you'd like. Just doesn't add up. If I were you I would want to know where my children were living.

                      Before you know it the kids will be through high school and going to college/university. If I were you I'd do my best to make a wonderful home there where you are and be very, very firm that your ex and the bf pay the cost of your kids flying home to visit you often. These long-distance relationships have a battery life that isn't impressive. Don't get sucked into the drama. If the kids want to taste another life let them. They will return to their home, friends and familiar surroundings. Being kids #3 and #4 will not sit well with them. They are likely at the age where you can't tell them anything and they have to find things out for themselves.

                      It's really cold here.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sydmoe View Post
                        Rio, That plan is my wish but doubtful she will agree to it
                        Of course she won't agree with it, she is your ex. But you will have to convince a judge Roi's idea / your plan is the best thing for the kids.

                        Start building your case. Your residence is far more stable then her living off someone (not owning a residence) half way accross the country where I presume she has not family, support, etc. Drive this point

                        Comment

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