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  • #16
    Originally posted by danzuchy View Post
    Psychiatrist are just as bad and easily bought.
    before you make statements like that you had better be able to back them up. When you throw out wild statements like that it damages your crediability IMHO.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
      Unless the doctor thinks it's serious enough to call CAS as being a danger to the child, it isn't likely to hold much weight if he takes you to court for denial of access.
      In fact, I would call "BS" on the OP blink here... The college of physicians and surgeons, the doctors governing body, would remove the doctor's license for providing this instruction to a client (patient) as it is GROSS MISCONDUCT as defined by their governing Act and section 283.(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada.

      The doctor is compelled by law and their governing body to:

      (a) Contact the Children's Aid Society
      (b) Report the concern so it can be investigated
      (c) Work with the CAS and provide all the evidence based medicine (records, assessments, plans) for the child in question to CAS

      No clinician (registered nurse, doctor, social worker, psychologiest, et all...) should be recommending a parent act in contravention of the Criminal Code Section 283.(1) or 282.(1) ("Abduction") and for a parent to "self remedy" a matter by removing a child in contravention of a court order.

      Furthermore, due to recent issues and recent updates by their colleges due to rash of parental abductions in an attempt to create a "false status quo" the governing clinical bodies have all issued statements to the members of their college specifically and explicitly stating this.

      As well, the LSUC has notified their members as well not to provide improper instruction and advice when not retained in a matrimonial dispute. (In the past 2-3 weeks I believe.)

      Doctors are registered and HIGHLY GOVERNED professionals in Canada and if a doctor is providing this instruction to a client (patient) it may possibly constitute malpractice in accordance with their college's governing rules and the other various medical acts and laws they are required to understand and follow in order to practice medicine.

      There has been a rash of "the doctor told me to do it" or "CAS told me to do it" recently on the board which is all "BS".

      The doctor is compelled by their practice requirements to contact the CAS and the CAS is required by their governing rules and laws to act when a child is in risk of emotional and/or physical harm and/or maltreatment and/or neglect.

      So, it is all well and good for someone to come here in vent, but the argument that "the doctor told me to do it" and/or "CAS told me to do it" is all complete "BS" in my honest opinion and have no grounding in fact as these professionals are compelled by law to literally *DO IT* if the child is at risk.

      Good Luck!
      Tayken

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by danzuchy View Post
        1) Your doctor is an idiot and most likely a personal friend who has been swayed by your "jibber jabber"
        2) a MD is not in any position to diagnose emotional issues and if he is trying to do so he's over reaching
        3) make, no DARE him to put it on paper. I bet you he doesn't.

        If any MD said this nonsense to me, either pro or con, I would contacting the College of physicians and then filing a civil claim
        No, doc is not a family friend but a very professional local doctor.

        And yes, family doctors deal with emotional issues all the time. Who do you think deals with depressions and anxieties for most patients? You saying this is just an inflammatory statement.

        I am sorry. I did not expect it to illicit such high emotions. Much of what I have read on this board has advocated for a calm, thoughtful response. Running off to file complaints against the doctor isn't going to help my daughter heal or improve her relationship with her Dad.

        The doctor was telling me their recommendations which also included an immediate referral to a child mental health professional. We have been receiving help and support.

        Thanks for taking the time to answer.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Mess View Post
          I think it is unconciounable for a doctor to make a recomendation that a child be alienated from their parent. The child is not in physical danger and unless there is cause for the doctor to report the father to the CAS, they are being completely unprofessional and inappropriate.

          From your description there is certainly cause for the three of you to go to family counselling to address what has happened.

          Perhaps it is possible you misunderstood the doctor's comments. Otherwise, if a doctor said anything like this either to me about my ex, or to my ex about me, I would be filing a complaint with the College of Physicians and Surgeons.
          I agree with Mess 100000000000000% on this one.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
            No, doc is not a family friend but a very professional local doctor.

            And yes, family doctors deal with emotional issues all the time. Who do you think deals with depressions and anxieties for most patients? You saying this is just an inflammatory statement.
            Although they deal with them, they are bound by their college to refer mental health issues to a qualified clinician. If you would like I can break out the various colleges rules on the practice of *Family Medicine*.

            Actually, it isn't an "inflammatory statement" and is a statement of fact, although delivered in a harsh tone by the poster, but is ultimately a statement of fact.

            Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
            I am sorry. I did not expect it to illicit such high emotions. Much of what I have read on this board has advocated for a calm, thoughtful response. Running off to file complaints against the doctor isn't going to help my daughter heal or improve her relationship with her Dad.
            No is attempting to leverage a statement made by a doctor to contravene the Criminal Code of Canada section 282.(1) Abduction to deny children their access to either parent.

            Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
            The doctor was telling me their recommendations which also included an immediate referral to a child mental health professional. We have been receiving help and support.
            Their "recommendations" would translate literally to their "plan" for care and is required to be DOCUMENTED by law in accordance with the Medical Act in your child's medical record. If the doctor hasn't physically recorded the "plan" that you should remove the child from the other parent you will look like a complete idiot before the court when (and if) the other parent requests and obtains (as their LEGAL RIGHT) your child's medical record and has the "doctor" ordered to cross examination.

            You are possibly engaged in a "distortion campaign" against the other parent and possibly attempting to transform the doctor into what is known as a "negative advocate". Be very careful on how you may be perceived if you have to explain to the court why the child is not going on access visits as agreed or court ordered and the doctor doesn't have prior documentation in the child's medical records (or your medical records) recommending that access be suspended to the other parent.

            More than likely, the "doctor" will not testify to anything not recorded in their notes and said to you in person. They will deny stating that and may even state that your emotional state may be causing you to project or be impairing your cognitive functioning. Which could really make things even WORSE for you before the court.

            What people here are showing and demonstrating is the possibilities of response from the other party in the matter.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Tayken View Post
              In fact, I would call "BS" on the OP blink here... The college of physicians and surgeons,.............. at risk.

              Good Luck!
              Tayken
              Thank you Tayken. That is the sort of information I was looking for.

              The doctor really did, very clearly, say that she thought I should stop all visitation until my daughter was emotionally stronger.

              For me the situation is likely complicated by the fact that we do not have any legal agreement. I am not "bound" to do anything but really want to do the right thing, for all involved.

              What has been hard is as a regular Mom, when a doctor tells you that you need to do something for your child, you do it. For example, if the doc had said she needed a prescription for an infection, I would go and have it filled and give it to D11. Because she made that recommendation about visitation and a referral to some excellent mental health help, it is hard for me to ignore it. I did call the lawyer and got the lawyer's recommendation before I decided anything. The lawyer said not to cancel visitation, and so visitation has continued.

              I truly wasn't sure if the answer on the forum would be "your doctor told you that so you need to follow their professional opinion". Or "how can you ignore a doctor's recommendation? You are being negligent." Having the info you provided is helpful.

              And ultimately, what someone said earlier is very true. If my daughter and her Dad have no contact, it will be hard to repair their relationship. I didn't see my own Dad often growing up and I certainly don't want that for my kids.

              Thanks to all who responded.

              Comment


              • #22
                And no, there is no distortion or smearing campaign. I took my daughter to the doctor for what I thought were physical complaints. Turns out they were all stress related. It was the doctor who asked me about life changes. I didn't walk in there saying "Look how my daughter is responding to the stress of the divorce." I went in there saying "My daughter has been complaining of these symptoms....."

                Comment


                • #23
                  I understand your statements about doing what your doctor tells you to do, but keep in mind they are human and just like any other professional, can and do make mistakes.

                  Clearly you are unsure, which is a good sign that you should seek a second opinion. Although we should trust our doctors to a certain extent, we should also trust our gut feelings when we feel unsure and uneasy about the advice given.

                  When you take your car to the shop and the mechanic tells you his recommendation is to replace everything on the car but the steering wheel, do you take him at his word because he's the 'expert', or do you seek a second opinion?

                  Your kid really should be evaluated by a mental health professional and in the meantime, continue her visitation with dad.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                    And no, there is no distortion or smearing campaign. I took my daughter to the doctor for what I thought were physical complaints. Turns out they were all stress related. It was the doctor who asked me about life changes. I didn't walk in there saying "Look how my daughter is responding to the stress of the divorce." I went in there saying "My daughter has been complaining of these symptoms....."
                    If you take this to court this is what will happen:


                    1) The Judge will ask why the doctor is not present
                    2) The Judge will ask if the doctor has ever met or even talked to your ex spouse

                    Once you answer no to #2 don't expect it to go anywhere and you'll get a roll of the eyes and a good day to you mam'. What you have planned won't work. Trust me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Actually, I have no plans to go to court and if you read everything I have written, visitation has continued. I want a great relationship with my kids and their Dad.

                      Secondly, the doctor has met my ex numerous times as he is her patient too.

                      I know that some women may be seen as having vicious, ulterior motives. I do not. I simply wanted to know what would happen if I didn't follow the doctor's recommendation and what responsibility I had. It is hard as the doc said one thing, the lawyer another and I just want my daughter to be healthy again.
                      Last edited by SadAndTired; 10-19-2012, 10:06 AM. Reason: Clarity

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                        I understand your statements about doing what your doctor tells you to do, but keep in mind they are human and just like any other professional, can a......................meantime, continue her visitation with dad.

                        Hi Blink.

                        I almost saw it as the reverse of your analogy. What if I take the car to the mechanic and say "Hey it is making a funny sound!" and the mechanic says it really isn't safe to drive until you get it checked out. Do I drive it anyway? What if I have an accident and hurt my kids.

                        That is how I see this. The doc said she thought my daughter had a pediatric form of PTSD. She recommended I stop visitation until D11 could meet with the professional and be evaluated. I think she was thinking that the visitation could make my daughter more stressed and therefore worse. So if I ignored the doc and things do get worse for my daughter, how is that responsible parenting? What if I made the wrong decision?..... Ultimately the decision was my own and I have continued visitation. I think it has been for the best.

                        I really was just wondering if my decision not to listen to the doctor could be held against me some how later.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Not unless they've called police or CAS and filed a report and CAS has deemed it a danger to the child, at which point they could take custody of the kids and you'd be on the hook for putting your child in danger.

                          But from what i've read of your posts, there really isn't any 'danger' here, the kid is just emotional and her feelings are hurt. Wait till she's 14, this will be an every other day occurence.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                            Not unless they've called police or CAS and filed a report and CAS has deemed it a danger to the child, at which point they could take custody of the kids and you'd be on the hook for putting your child in danger.

                            But from what i've read of your posts, there really isn't any 'danger' here, the kid is just emotional and her feelings are hurt. Wait till she's 14, this will be an every other day occurence.

                            You need to chill bitch and treat people with respect.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              Thank you Tayken. That is the sort of information I was looking for.

                              The doctor really did, very clearly, say that she thought I should stop all visitation until my daughter was emotionally stronger.
                              This constitutes possible "emotional harm" and the fact that the doctor hasn't reported the concerns to CAS is puzzling to say the least. I highly doubt that the doctor would state this to you.

                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              For me the situation is likely complicated by the fact that we do not have any legal agreement. I am not "bound" to do anything but really want to do the right thing, for all involved.
                              In the absence of consent or a court order you are bound by the Criminal Code of Canada section 283.(1) Abduction for any child under 14 to *take*, conceal, detain, or harbour your child from the other parent:

                              Specifically it reads (my emphasis added):

                              Section 283

                              (1) [ Abduction ]

                              Every one who, being the parent, guardian or person having the lawful care or charge of a person under the age of fourteen years, takes, entices away, conceals, detains, receives or harbours that person, whether or not there is a custody order in relation to that person made by a court anywhere in Canada, with intent to deprive a parent or guardian, or any other person who has the lawful care or charge of that person, of the possession of that person, is guilty of

                              (a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, or

                              (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
                              Under law, both parents have "joint custody" in the absence of an agreement or court order and entitled to equal custody and equal access.

                              The other parent may not have been advised of this but, you are now being advised of this and as such should either seek an order of the court awarding you sole custody and majority access or agree/propose and INSURE that the child has equal access to the other parent and that you are informing the other parent and getting consent from the other parent for everything regarding the child.

                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              What has been hard is as a regular Mom, when a doctor tells you that you need to do something for your child, you do it.
                              No, you don't. Attempt to leverage this argument before the court and see how it plays out after you do what the "doctor tells you to do" and the court applies jurisprudence (case law), the Family Law Rules, the Chilrden's Law Reform Act, et all...

                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              For example, if the doc had said she needed a prescription for an infection, I would go and have it filled and give it to D11.
                              Very different situation and your clearly confused. A prescription is a legal medical document. A statement made to you by voice by a doctor that is not recorded in a medical document IS HEARSAY until such time that the doctor contacts CAS to report the matter and provide cogent and relevant evidence to a non-biased third party (ie. a parent!).

                              A prescription is only provided after a doctor collects subjective statements, objectively evaluates the situation (takes a temperature, blood test, et all...), assesses the results and provides a plan. Part of the *plan* is the providing a prescription.

                              One would question how a doctor could "prescribe" the removal of children in contravention of the criminal code of Canada section 283.(1) and well... They can't... They have to call CAS.

                              You as a parent (as well as the other parent) have the legal right to not fill the prescription and not provide the medication to your child. Until such time that a court states otherwise.

                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              Because she made that recommendation about visitation and a referral to some excellent mental health help, it is hard for me to ignore it. I did call the lawyer and got the lawyer's recommendation before I decided anything. The lawyer said not to cancel visitation, and so visitation has continued.
                              This is because the lawyer knows the law and until such time your "doctor" affirms to the truth their assessment and plan either through a legal medical document or a sworn statement to the truth it is HEARSAY.

                              Furthermore, your lawyer probably hasn't said this to you but, it probably needs to be said, no one will believe you unless the doctor swears this to the truth, testifies or produces a legal medical document stating otherwise.

                              A *letter* from your doctor is NOT a medical record and is inadmissible. A medical record conforming to the requirements set forth in Law, the colleges practices and governance requirements or an affirmation to the truth is what is needed for your "evidence" to have any weight before the court.

                              Furthermore, if the child is at risk of emotional harm and advising you to break the law in contravention of Section 283.(1) they are possibly exposing themselves to criminal charges should their "diagnosis" be found to be false, manipulated or made in "bad faith" with the Medical Act and their governing body's rules, regulations and law.

                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              I truly wasn't sure if the answer on the forum would be "your doctor told you that so you need to follow their professional opinion". Or "how can you ignore a doctor's recommendation? You are being negligent." Having the info you provided is helpful.
                              Your doctor is a medical doctor and therefore is bound by law to practice in the areas of medicine they are licensed to. No medical practitioner has the legal right to advise any patient to remove children in contravention of section 283.(1). This is *why they have to notify CAS*.

                              It is possible that you are not understanding what is being communicated to you by the doctor. In fact, if you act on the doctor's advice and attempt to leverage it as fact could (and should) be used against you in court.

                              Please, think very logically about what the doctor specifically said. You may be in an anxious state and your cognitive functioning may be impacted as a result. Call the doctor and ask for clarification on the information. You have chosen the name "SadAndTired" and sadness and being tired are symptoms of major depression (cognative disorder) and may need medical attention yourself. Please seek therapy for you and your child's best interests if you are truly, as your name states explicitly, "sad and tired".

                              Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                              And ultimately, what someone said earlier is very true. If my daughter and her Dad have no contact, it will be hard to repair their relationship. I didn't see my own Dad often growing up and I certainly don't want that for my kids.

                              Thanks to all who responded.
                              Talk to your doctor. Get clarification on the statement made. It is HIGHLY unlikely that they recommend you deny access or seek a court order to restrict access. Any good doctor would call CAS with their concern if a child is in danger and are obligated under law to do so.

                              You may need to attend to your "sadness" and "tiredness" which may be significantly impacting your cognitive functioning at this time.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                                That is how I see this. The doc said she thought my daughter had a pediatric form of PTSD.
                                I call "BS" on this one big time. PTSD specifically requires the exposure to a traumatic event and other key and critical diagnosis classifications. It would be EXTREMELY CLINICALLY NEGLIGNENT for the doctor to even state that they "thought" your daughter had PTSD. No family practitioner in PRACTICE IN CANADA is clinically qualified to make this assumption or DIAGNOSIS! That is just pure fact. There are only a limited number of child psychologists / psychiatrists that can.

                                Even the utterance of this statement by a doctor should be followed by a referal to SickKids which is one of the only institutes in our COUNTRY that could even come close to making that complex of a diagnosis properly in an 11 year old child.

                                Post-traumatic stress disorder diagnosis in children: challenges and promises

                                Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                                She recommended I stop visitation until D11 could meet with the professional and be evaluated. I think she was thinking that the visitation could make my daughter more stressed and therefore worse. So if I ignored the doc and things do get worse for my daughter, how is that responsible parenting? What if I made the wrong decision?..... Ultimately the decision was my own and I have continued visitation. I think it has been for the best.
                                Then the doctor should be calling CAS. CAS should be obtaining an order under the Family Services Act for the child to be evaluated by a properly qualified mental health practitioner for determination.

                                Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                                I really was just wondering if my decision not to listen to the doctor could be held against me some how later.
                                Yes, it can, and should be. It could also impact your custody and access to the child in question.

                                Furthermore, unless the child is at the clinical encounter and been evaluated by the doctor in question the doctor cannot make any diagnosis about any medical condition.

                                Also, without consent of the other parent or court order you bringing your child to any medical doctor without consent or court order is a violation of the other parent's custodial rights.

                                You are walking down a very slippery slope and find yourself paying thousands in legal costs to the other parent or worse... Losing custody and access to the child in question if you are improperly using the medical system and making factitious statements to clinicians about your child's health and well being.

                                Good Luck!
                                Tayken

                                Comment

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