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  #41  
Old 05-14-2013, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Someone hasn't done it yet... So I will do it yet again...

Shaw v. Shaw, 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)
Date: 2008-03-25
Docket: 34/08
Parallel citations: 62 RFL (6th) 100
URL: CanLII - 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)
Citation: Shaw v. Shaw, 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)



Etc...

Not taking sides as the information provided that so many are upset with can be found on any "domestic violence' website, in the "manuals" of Lundy Bancroft and other "domestic violence advocates" (self acclaimed experts), provided by Legal Aid Ontario to "clients", and "domestic violence" shelters to "clients". The only difference is that it only targeted at one gender and specifically one sexual orientation. (Hetrosexual males.)

Again, I state that intimate partner abuse knows no bounds, sexual orientation, gender, race or religion. Men, women, homosexuals, lesbians and the transgendered are equally capable of engaging in and being a victim of "intimate partner abuse".

Good Luck!
Tayken

Thanks Tayken but I don't think this is a just a gay-related issue but rather one that impacts individuals regardless of their sexual orientation. It's pretty basic - you don't make up bullshit and call the cops to leverage obtaining house/kids/money.

I am not naive and know it probably goes on frequently.

My point is simply that people on this forum should not be coaching people to do this.

Of course I don't expect you to take sides because, well, you're Tayken!


I thought you were against dishonesty, manipulation, filing of false charges - didn't you just post something to that effect? Sorry if I'm wrong. Thought you presented moral indignity about those sorts of things. My mistake.
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  #42  
Old 05-14-2013, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post

Not taking sides as the information provided that so many are upset with can be found on any "domestic violence' website, in the "manuals" of Lundy Bancroft and other "domestic violence advocates" (self acclaimed experts), provided by Legal Aid Ontario to "clients", and "domestic violence" shelters to "clients". The only difference is that it only targeted at one gender and specifically one sexual orientation. (Hetrosexual males.)


Tayken
Lundy Bancroft has devoted almost 20 years to counselling over 2,000 abusers. He does state though that he is not an expert regarding being an expert witness in court. I have read "Why Does He Do That" and countless other books on abuse, and find this book excellent...one of the best. Thanks for providing the opportunity to mention his book.

Tayken, you sound like a "self-acclaimed expert" yourself. Perhaps defer to the thought of having people decide whether or not they like any book. I doubt you've even read "Why Does He Do That".

You sound a little less conceited with a bit less of a grandoise idea of yourself this time around. That's good. We all have our faults and just have to keep working on them.

Last edited by caranna; 05-14-2013 at 11:10 PM.
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  #43  
Old 05-14-2013, 11:06 PM
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It's amazing how everyone can have different interpretations of the same post.

The OP brought up his concerns. That he has always lived in a 1 bedroom house while his ex has a different house. They have lived like this for months. Just because they are married, in the process of divorce, can an ex come now and try and move into this 1 bedroom home? I know I would be calling the police and ensuring I had exclusive possession.

Mess gave you a hypothetical situation Arabian. What would you, or some of the other people on this thread, do in this situation? Coming out of the shower, and there is your ex in your home...

Would you allow this ex to move in... stay on the couch... sleep head to toe?
Would you allow it to continue while you go through the court process?
Or would you call the police for help. Not necessarily to arrest them, but to ensure they stay out of your home?
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  #44  
Old 05-15-2013, 12:03 AM
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I have always had a monitored alarm system. Any interruption after the alarm is set summons the police who would respond within 4 minutes.

I don't deal in hypothetical, rather facts, particularly when giving advice on this forum. That is what my remarks are directed at.

If the fellow feels the need to call the police because of a "perceived" threat on his person or because of what someone has told him to do on this forum then that is his decision.

I repeat, no where has the OP implied that his person was threatened by his ex. My remarks are directed on what was posted not on what was conjured by someone's overactive imagination.

Yes HappyDays we must all have different interpretations of this thread.

I have files full of threatening letters from my ex's lawyers. At no time did I ever feel "threatened."

Again, competent legal advice would be prudent in this matter in my opinion.
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  #45  
Old 05-15-2013, 01:14 AM
HappyDays HappyDays is offline
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You avoided the question nicely.

As the op brought up his hypothetical concern, surely you can answer it hypothetically.
Assume you are the op. You live alone in your house, ex has their own house.
Somehow the alarm wasn't set properly because you come out to discover your ex in your bedroom with his Hello Roomie shirt on.
Do you feel threatened? Do you call the police? Do you compare that to just "threatening" letters from your ex's lawyer?

You are correct, the op didn't say he currently feels threatened. But given the hypothetical concern he did ask, that would leave anyone of us threatened. In that situation, we would call the police and get a restraining order to ensure it didn't happen again.

Is your issue with letting someone know they can call the police in that situation, or is the issue that the ex was called an ex-girlfriend? While it may be misleading, either way the police would ask the ex to leave and inform him to seek a restraining order if he feels threatened.

By calling her a "crazy ex girlfriend", you will just get the police to the house quicker. Has no effect on the outcome. He is not lying about what happened or being vindictive in trying to get her arrested. The police are just to get her out of the house, to dispose of the threat, without any chance of argument or false dv claims.

Last edited by HappyDays; 05-15-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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  #46  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:52 AM
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Tayken Tayken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caranna View Post
Lundy Bancroft has devoted almost 20 years to counselling over 2,000 abusers. He does state though that he is not an expert regarding being an expert witness in court. I have read "Why Does He Do That" and countless other books on abuse, and find this book excellent...one of the best. Thanks for providing the opportunity to mention his book.
I have read his book and the counter arguments to his book written by qualified clinicians and the opinions given in case law on his "research". Lundy Bankroft falls into the same category as Alyce LaViolette. If you are not familiar with Alyce LaViolette she is a similar "expert" who testified that Jodi Arias, who was forensically diagnosed as being borderline and now a convicted murderer, was a victim of domestic violence and acting in self defense.

So, I always cautiously approach the content of non-professionals who "research". As Mr. Bankroft is not a clinician nor professional qualified to work with any "domestic abusers" it is concerning that he claims to have worked with 2000 people. Furthermore, his past employment history with the courts and his past employment is quite questionable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caranna View Post
Tayken, you sound like a "self-acclaimed expert" yourself. Perhaps defer to the thought of having people decide whether or not they like any book. I doubt you've even read "Why Does He Do That".
Perhaps that just like you, I am allowed to have an opinion. But, I differentiate my opinion by presenting counter arguments based on other research and opinion. I am not saying that you can't like his book but, it doesn't mean I can't think critically about his book and share my perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caranna View Post
You sound a little less conceited with a bit less of a grandoise idea of yourself this time around. That's good. We all have our faults and just have to keep working on them.
I am sorry you feel this way but, it doesn't require you to verbally assault me in this way and attack me in such a manner. Your comments make me feel "unsafe" and you have drawn conclusions that are not based in fact or are truthful and only state your personal belief about me as a person.

General Information to those Reading: Caranna is trying to apply Lundy Bancroft's "theory" against me. Bankroft holds that domestic abusers hold a "grandoise idea" (egocentric) view of self. Unfortunately, the readers and followers of his litigation strategy don't realize that they are making reference to a clinical ontology rooted in the diagnosis of NPD. They also don't realize that by making a bold assertion like that they are themselves being "verbally abusive" by Mr. Bankroft's own definition. Canarra is neither qualified nor trained to even make a statement like that about a person. Canarra didn't preface her statement with "possibly" which places her in the cross hairs of it possibly being a libel statement made against me.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Last edited by Tayken; 05-15-2013 at 06:30 AM.
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  #47  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
Thanks Tayken but I don't think this is a just a gay-related issue but rather one that impacts individuals regardless of their sexual orientation.
Not sure how you could twist what I said and try to state the above when I explicitly stated (my emphasis added):

Quote:
Originally Posted by tayken
Again, I state that intimate partner abuse knows no bounds, sexual orientation, gender, race or religion. Men, women, homosexuals, lesbians and the transgendered are equally capable of engaging in and being a victim of "intimate partner abuse".
Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
It's pretty basic - you don't make up bullshit and call the cops to leverage obtaining house/kids/money.
Agreed. What do you propose the courts should do when it is found to be true that a litigant has done this though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
My point is simply that people on this forum should not be coaching people to do this.
I am of the opinon that people on this forum who believe this should also be writing to their local "domestic violence" shelters asking why men are not provided services? Why gay men are not provided services. Why lesbian women are not provided services? Why transgendered women are not provided services? Why their materials are gender biased towards one gender and sexual orientation? Why they don't equally help all victims of intimate partner abuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
I thought you were against dishonesty, manipulation, filing of false charges - didn't you just post something to that effect? Sorry if I'm wrong. Thought you presented moral indignity about those sorts of things. My mistake.
You seem to have morals and ethics confused. I am concerned with the ethics of the Human Rights Code that provides that all services should be provided to citizens irrespective of gender, race, or religious belief. Law is about ethics and not morals. So you may have my position confused with your own personal "beliefs" about me as a person.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Last edited by Tayken; 05-15-2013 at 06:12 AM.
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  #48  
Old 05-15-2013, 06:11 AM
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Tayken Tayken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
I don't deal in hypothetical, rather facts, particularly when giving advice on this forum. That is what my remarks are directed at.
I don't disagree with your statement. But, maybe you could provide insight why it is "ok" for domestic violence shelters to post the same generic information for clients to read and how that is different than the information posted to this forum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
If the fellow feels the need to call the police because of a "perceived" threat on his person or because of what someone has told him to do on this forum then that is his decision.
An over anxious person could gain the same "perception" reading Lundy Bancroft and the other generic posting to a domestic violence shelter's site and go to the police with a "perception" and not "fact". So, we should really explore all the opportunities to resolve this problem and not just focus on one individual.

For example a case on point: "Bring Alice Home"

Bring Alice Home: A Family Destroyed by Interim Place Shelter. - YouTube
Bring Alice Home: - YouTube

Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
I repeat, no where has the OP implied that his person was threatened by his ex. My remarks are directed on what was posted not on what was conjured by someone's overactive imagination.
The same could be said of the generic materials posted on domestic violence shelters that doesn't advise readers that false allegations of intimate partner abuse is psychologically abusive and in accordance with Rule 24 of the Children's Law Reform Act may constitute "violence".

A child may be abducted in contravention of section 282.(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada based on false allegations of domestic violence:

Alice Caetano | Faces of Abducted Canadian Children | iCHAPEAU | Canada's iCHAPEAU Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
The abducting mother used a Women’s shelter named Interim Place in Mississauga, Ontario as a shield to keep her daughter in Brazil by reporting violence without any supporting evidence or investigations by Canadian Police, Children’s Aid Agencies or by Doctors / Hospital records.

The Interim Place shelter forwarded a letter and their own internal notes directly to Brazilian Court in support of the mother without verifying any of the facts or without providing a clear indication of the source of the allegations.

Considering Interim Place is not an authority agency in Canada, the Brazilian Courts utilized these case notes and treated them as “fact” rather then allegations. In any reasonable court situation, this amounts to heresy testimony from the Abducting parent to justify their abduction and the preponderance of evidence, as required by the Hague Convention was not met, but still utilized by the Brazilian courts to harbour and retain Alice Caetano from being ordered returned to Canada.
So, I am all for exploring the opportunities to improve the advice given on this forum in the context of "intimate partner abuse" but, I do strongly feel and hold the position that not only Mess should be the target of our complaints but, domestic violence shelters, Legal Aid Ontario, the Courts, Government, and others.

I think there should be equal awareness of "false allegations of intimate partner abuse" and not just "domestic violence". People miss use "information" all the time and the services of organizations as well to get what they want. How can we help these organizations improve their materials so there is a better understanding of "intimate partner abuse" and "false allegations of intimate partner abuse" equally?

Good Luck!
Tayken

Last edited by Tayken; 05-15-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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  #49  
Old 05-15-2013, 07:30 AM
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In addition to the evidence provided in support of my concerns regarding materials, advice, support and other advice provided by domestic violence shelters I present this evidence:

Transcript of letter sent to Interim Place sent by the Minister of the Attorney General which can be publicly found at the following link:

ALICE CAETANO CASE - Ministry of the Attorney General to Interim Place Shelter (September-29-2011).p
Ministry of the Attorney General
Central Autority for the
Province of Ontario

Hauge Convention on the
Civil Aspects of
International Child Abduction
P.O. Box 640
Downsview ON M3M 3A3
Canada

Tel.: 416-240-2411 (The Hague)
Fax.: 416-240-2411 (The Hauge)

September 29, 2011

Sharon Floyd
Interim Executive Director
Interim Place
Box 245 Port Credit,
Mississauga ON L5G 4L8
Tel: 905-403-9691 Ex. 2224
Fax: 905-403-9808

RE: Hauge Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction
Applicant: CAETANO, Cesar Pimenta
Respondent: CAETANO, Luciana Drumond Pires
Child: CAETANO, Alice Pires (d.o.b. June 18, 2003)

Pursuant to our responsibilites as the Central Authority for the Province of Ontario for matters under the Hauge Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, we are hereby sending you this letter to obtain some assistance in the abduction of the abve noted child.

The respondent, mother as named above has absconded with the child, and has made claims abroad that she was abused due to the fact that she was in your facility.

Traditionally, women who are factually being abused by their partners seek refuge in facilities such as yours, attend court to obtain the appropriate court orders and file a report with the local police. Records have been checked and there is no relevant report with respect to abuse against the mother. She also did not obtain a court order or consent to take the child out of the country; however you housed her and the child and have not provided any causes for your involvement.

Your mission states, "Interim Place provides shelter, support, counseling and advocacy to help abused women and their children break the cycle of abuse. Interim place provides serviecs in a manner that honours the diversity of women and children. We are committed to a philosophy of feminism, anti-racism and anti-opression." Although the safety of the mother is surely paramount, the interests of the child was not at all considered when assisting this mother.

The respondent mother is a repcat abductor and should your facility conduct sufficient checks on the clientele, that information would have been realized.

Our office has been advised that you have been contacted by the applicant, father's attorney for clarification on your involvement. Although your mission is to help women being abused at home, do you also shelter women and children who simply do not have a place to live? Secondly, the mother has made many claims against the father to the Ontario Court and has not been able to prove the violence against her. What recourse is taken to prove a woman claiming to be abused by her partner prior to your assistance? What advocacy was applied with the mother; did you help her in court or attend the police station to support her while making a police statement?

Kindly advise if there is a legal department that can be contacted in this instance, if you cannot provide any details as the Executive Director.

Kind regards,
Signed: Amira Ali
Case Manager, Ontario Central Authority
Tel/Fax: 416-240-2411

cc. Aida Pasha, counsel for C. Caetano
Good Luck!
Tayken
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  #50  
Old 05-15-2013, 07:37 AM
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Tayken Tayken is offline
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Originally Posted by caranna View Post
Mess, please don't tell me what I "mean to say". That sounds very minimizing and condescending.
Yet, this is "ok" for you to do to me? Lets all rise above this and respect each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caranna View Post
I thought I stated my thoughts clearly. You were giving information about drastic actions to take when the OP did not even hint at any thing of the kind that would "merit" your advice.
Interesting, this is the challenge I have when reading most of the comments you make to this forum. As well, it is equally difficult as they are mostly hearsay statements made against me and others for which you now are claiming against Mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caranna View Post
In spite of your inflammatory advice, the OP remained calm and kept on track. Good for him.
Inflammatory is defined as:

"(esp. of speech or writing) Arousing or intended to arouse angry or violent feelings."

Not sure how what Mess wrote aroused or intended to arouse angry or violent feelings? Please clarify your use of the term in relation to what Mess wrote. If you are unable to then I can only accept it as "emotional reasoning" from you to support your argument against Mess and hearsay based on personal belief and no facts.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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