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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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Old 12-18-2012, 04:58 PM
ddol1 ddol1 is offline
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Default Can someone confirm which date is used to determine property owned at the start

So I admit I thought I was ok but now I question - If you move in together say a year before actually tying the knot, which is the cuttoff date now to determine what we owned and brought into the marriage? Is it the actual date of the marriage or is it the date you moved into together (which is what is used for determining length of the relationship to determine support)?????
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:38 PM
frustratedwithex frustratedwithex is offline
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In my case, because we had a marriage of 21 years, the year we moved in together determined the length of our relationship. Our relationship was 26 years, marriage was 21 years.

26 years was used for SS purposes.

Hope that helps.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:21 PM
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thanks frustratedwithex - just learned that with our 24 years we are just on the other side of the majic, I believe was the silver 25th?

Edit to my post - I was Looking to answer how to establish the date for property division "What we each owned coming into the marriage".

Just to help, I have been told it is time to nail down the property lists - My real dillemma is in the property and in the case of "my not so nice these days" ex; if she put 4K into her pension and RRSP during the time we lived together and if she should desrve credit for this, then I just as soon give it to her. That said, I initially treated this time as if we were married, our cash was already pooled and we lived like this for 24 years.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:10 AM
DowntroddenDad DowntroddenDad is offline
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For all property except the matrimonial home, the date of marriage is the important date. So if you had a stock that you bought at $100 before marriage, it was worth $125 dollars the day you were married, and $150 the day you separated, you would split the $25 dollars in value that it increased.

The matrimonial house (primary residence you shared with your spouse) is split 50/50, current value on the day of separation.

The tricky thing is getting valuations on things like pension plans from long time ago.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
For all property except the matrimonial home,
And the matrimonial home. Special rules, but it does not change the dates.

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So if you had a stock that you bought at $100 before marriage, it was worth $125 dollars the day you were married, and $150 the day you separated, you would split the $25 dollars in value that it increased.
A succinct description of equalization.

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The matrimonial house (primary residence you shared with your spouse) is split 50/50, current value on the day of separation.
It is an asset like any other. There is a personal right to possession against the other party, however whosoever is on title is the owner. If it did not exist on the marriage date then it will not impact equalization.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:55 PM
frustratedwithex frustratedwithex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddol1 View Post
Edit to my post - I was Looking to answer how to establish the date for property division "What we each owned coming into the marriage".

That said, I initially treated this time as if we were married, our cash was already pooled and we lived like this for 24 years.
Because of the length of my marriage and the ages we were when we began our relationship, we did not determine who owned what or who contributed what coming into the marriage.

We most likely replaced whatever furniture and other household items during the length of the relationship, as well as contribute and combine investments and bank accounts.
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Originally Posted by ddol1 View Post
That said, I initially treated this time as if we were married, our cash was already pooled and we lived like this for 24 years.
Be careful with this. If you are going to use the total years together to establish the length of your relationship for support purposes, and willingly admit that you pooled your cash as if you were married, you can't then turn around and try and separate cash and household items as if you weren't a couple. You can't have it both ways
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:52 AM
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fair enough for the both ways - in reality this is what I do want to do it -- One way, fair. This would mean an agreement of sorts between both of us as to what "value" we brought into our relationship, as I am learning here, from the date of marriage. In very simple terms, we both had a few choice, basically brand new items that we were willing to give face value for (under 4K total, I know small dollars, and I did have some all new household, hers was all hand me down, torn up and chewed on by four cats!! everything - everything she had that was not metal was in some form destroyed by the animals and were not even used - it was tossed and we replaced it together. End result, I have been telling my lawyer why bother with at marriage list of whatever we had was not worth much at auction pricing and I am happy just attaching an equal nominal amount to both our sides, say $3,000 each. (I thought this is a fair no nonsense way to not spend resources on NIL value stuff compared to say the RRSP money and the Pension money that we need to iron out as to what they were worth on the date of marriage. This is where her money mostly was.

The other issue I do struggle is my tools, heard here before, My work needed me to own a lot of tools, my interests at home then was cars, the old Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds - were pricy then and today are out of this world expensive. Point I make here is my 1969 mustang was most of my "cash" - a 20 year old muscle car that would have had an evaluated value of 20K based on what professional evaluations were producing then for actual market selling prices; but I never evaluated it - I took the insurance risk. Today I put a fair value of $8,000 and at least $5,000 in auction valued tools. Both are 100% denied by my ex.

What had just been itemized, including current value (just like our mandate today - what it would sell for/bought for in same condition) when I moved back from living in the USA just before getting married; I remember the total was $22,000 (tools came in at $12,000 - everything else made up the other $10,000 - I really do not even care about the 10K - but I do care about my tools. I do not have any paperwork for the border crossing today, but I must naturally prove every wrench and bolt...... at "then" values. What is looking like an impossible task, heck even for what I had - there is no go to court proof that I owned even one tool let alone the value, there is no pictures - nothing aside from an ex who I guess is wisely taking the fifth and forcing me to prove an impossible task????

Sorry I could go on, but the point is, there is no going back 25 years to get an evaluation of a super clean muscle car, or a substantial amount of work and personal related tools. (I did scour internet - today junker Mustangs without engines go for $7,000, close comparables today are selling in the $35,000 range and 5 - 10 times more for collector/mint examples) and my Ex is naturally taking the position of, "You had a mustang???" "I know you had some wrenches for a few hundred dollars -
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:53 AM
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I can't believe you have to go back and try to itemize "stuff" from 24 yrs ago. I can't remember what I owed 10 yrs ago let alone 24 yrs ago.

Tools of trade, as far as I know, are separate item, possibly excluded. They hold almost no value when you go to sell them and they would be of no use to your ex unless she was a mechanic. My ex had tons of tools and lots of goodies in garage and two work shops. I didn't object when he wanted it all. In fact I was relieved. He, on the other hand, didn't object when I took all the art. I am so thankful that we didn't have to go through this whole thing.

What on earth could possibly be worth the expense of lawyers to try to evaluate any of this? Yes I know those old cars are very valuable if they are in good condition. One just has to watch Barrett Jackson auctions to get an idea.

Are you going to be having her count and itemize all the bone china? When I shipped a pile of china to my brother a few years back he wasn't pleased with me at the time but when he sold it a few years later he was thrilled as it was worth many thousands of dollars.

Excuse my ignorance but what is the purpose of this exercise? I would think dividing the assets 50/50 would be reasonable unless one person took all of the household furnishings - add 10k on to the other person's side and call it a day. Things depreciate dramatically and old junk is just that - old junk.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:38 AM
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gosh you make sense! something I actually thought from day one!!! When did it change? Maybe after my second try with the police to get even basic stuff like my tooth brush heads (yup, I have to use the expensive kind due to my teeth issues) but I couldn't cuz yup, she wouldn't release them (she took them for her machine) and with the police I was presented with 10 minutes and everything that might be mine piled into the end of the basement all the way up to the cieling!! Police officers shook their heads too - both as they came in pairs each time (one stood beside my ex backing her off to the side and the other pitched in to help me. But I shrug my shoulders with a smile re the tooth brush things to clean my teeth!!!! Bigger issues in my life.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:20 AM
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I can't believe you have to go back and try to itemize "stuff" from 24 yrs ago. I can't remember what I owed 10 yrs ago let alone 24 yrs ago.
This is not uncommon. Unless you had something substantial - bonds, property, investments, hoard of gold - the shirt on your (and her) back was not worth the ink and paper to argue about it.

Quote:
I would think dividing the assets 50/50 would be reasonable unless one person took all of the household furnishings - add 10k on to the other person's side and call it a day. Things depreciate dramatically and old junk is just that - old junk.
Very prudent advice.
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