My girlfriend wants to get married - I don't...

[LostFather]

There isn't really any unfairness unless your relationship is "unfair." If she doesn't work and you do, then you will definately pay support if you split up.

If you and she are both university educated and have careers, there is no reason to end up paying support.

If you have children it will tend the same way. If you and she share parenting equally in the relationship then you have an ideal chance of having shared parenting if you split up.

If she wants to get married it's pretty likely she wants children some day too. You would have to face this choice sooner or later.

Sorry Mess I disagree. Shared parenting is not as automatic as you seem to imply, suggesting that if they were sharing parenting while in the relationship. In fact most of us that have even through the system and are great dads can certainly prove otherwise the system is biased and men get screwed not only by their ex's but by the multibillion dollar industry that thrives on adversarial parents. The chance you mention should be ideal but is far from it in my opinion. I would close by saying that things seem to be changing for the better towards men, it has a long, long way to go before its 'fair'.

[Kingdom]

you seem to contradict yourself a bit. You say you dont want to get married but then you seem to lean towards it. You say she is the right person and you do not want to split up with her, well that can happen if you are dating or living common law, not just married.

I am thinking you are just not ready for this step and you have to be honest with her. You may not want to split up but marriage might be something that is very important to her so she may wish to start a relationship with someone else who has the same goal as she does in regard to marriage.

You're right, I do seem to be contradicting myself - marriage isn't a big deal to me as much as it is to her. We've discussed what you've posted; that I'm not ready for that step - can you explain what maturity has to do with marriage? It's a big step that I believe a lot of people take too lightly.

I also mentioned she should be with a guy who wants to marry and have the same goals as her as her, as at the moment my main goal is my career. She was pretty understanding about it, said doesn't want to pressure me into anything.

I'm going to end the relationship as we don't have the same goals, thanks dude. We're both relatively young so we'll find ourselves with other people...just worried about her wanting to get back together as I've had this problem in the past with a few exes.

Ummmm...try sarcasm. I'm not passive agressive. I'm quite non-passive when I'm aggressive actually. If you don't believe me, call my ex.

I don't want to call your ex, but it's obvious he's hurt you deeply and you're still not over the pain.

You don't get the very amusing irony of coming to a divorce website to ask people here whether or not its a good idea to get married?

The material point is that if you were mature enough to get married, you wouldn't need to be here because no one anywhere can tell you whether or not to do it. Marriage isn't something you do on concensus....nor should it be. Its akin to asking a bunch of manic depressives if life is worth living. If you here asking about reasonable precautions to take...that makes sense...but to ask whether or not you should get married at a divorce website is f'ing ridiculous. You're a kid trying to find validation for fears you have. This isn't therapy buddy...but you should probably get some.

Definitely see the irony, still doesn't hurt to ask people who've been through the ringer. You come across as angry/bitter in your posts again...

The question isn't whether or not you're with the right girl...the question is whether or not she's with the right man. Personally, I think she'd be better off with a guy who's balls have actually dropped.

Please don't deflect your own failures on me, you're projecting your issues on me.

[Pursuinghappiness]

And, interesting how no one has commented on my posts that marriage does NOT mean committment. Either of one you can leave for ANY or NO reason at all ! All marriage does is make leaving VERY complicated and potentially VERY expensive.

I'll comment!!!!!! lol...

What's your point? You're upset about the fact that people...or women...have the right to leave a relationship in the event that it isn't working out for them. What do you suggest marriage should be...a form of slavery? I have no issue with modifications to the marriage act as it was primarily started because women and children were considered chattel to the husband. I think its highly outdated and should be updated. And you can still find these types of laws in certain countries. For instance, you and the OP could go live in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan if he wants that type of marriage. In those countries, if your wife has an affair, you can bury her up to her neck in sand and throw rocks at her head. (Something tells me that you'd be ok with that.)

But in Canada...(hi there, welcome to the free world)...men and women are free to leave marriages that don't meet their needs and must comply to the divorce laws as set-out. I think freedom and choice are good things.

My point is simple. Life is all about risk. So going into any circumstance in life...you have to ensure that you've tried to look around all the corners, consider your options and make a sensible decision based on the available data you have at the time. If you look up data regarding human pair bonding...you'll find that with the right set of circumstances, humans can pair bond quite successfully for life...and these relationships help you live longer, healthier lives. In fact, there's recent data that the most common fundamental fact among human beings across socioeconomic and geographical location is the desire to love, be loved, and bond with one partner. In fact, single men die earlier than any other group. BBC News | HEALTH | Single men 'die younger' (there are many, many articles on the subject..this is just one). The discovery channel just did a 3-day special on love, commitment and manogamy...you should watch it.

No one can tell you when to get married or whether or not it makes sense and frankly no one should. Its highly dependent on a very unique set of circumstances both internal and external to the people entering into the arrangement. But if you go through life not doing things because of risk...what a f'ing wimpy mook you are. You won't do anything. Don't have kids, don't drive, don't fly, holy shit don't drink the water!, don't have sex (if she cheats, you'll end up with weiner-warts!!!).....

I mean...what seriously stupid advice...and how equally stupid of the OP to even ask anyone on here's advice on anything besides reasonally precautions to take. Uh, hello...this is a divorce forum.

To the OP...you probably shouldn't marry at this point because you're going into it with completely the wrong mindset as a lot of people do entering upon marriage (including me. I fully admit that I married for all the wrong reasons). Leave the poor girl alone until you grow up and figure out that you don't need cynical strangers to stroke your man-vagina and make you feel better about decisions you should be making on your own.

[Pursuinghappiness]

I don't want to call your ex, but it's obvious he's hurt you deeply and you're still not over the pain

Dude, its pretty silly to resort to a personal attack because you can't counter what I'm saying. I'm not hurt about my divorce...it was entirely my choice...nor do I consider my long marriage a failure. I have lovely children...my marriage just ran its course...like many do. You came here asking a stupid question now grow a pair of danglies and listen to opinions that don't support the pre-conceived assumptions and fears you walked in with. You can't learn anything if you think you know it all. Stop pouting like a classic control-freak because not everyone agrees with you.

- can you explain what maturity has to do with marriage? It's a big step that I believe a lot of people take too lightly.

Really??? You need someone to explain that to you? Obviously because its a big step...one needs to be mature when making it. The very reason for the high divorce statistic is because its very hard to know at your age what changes you will go through and what you will need later in life. Maturity is a requirement because you need to make sure that you understand the incredible commitment that comes from the work to maintain a married life. You need to grasp that your set of needs and your spouses will change in time and if you do not stay in sync, your marriage will probably not survive.

Its the reason that people that marry later in life have more successful longevity statistics.

Anyway, I find this whole thread absolutely hilarious...so thanks for that.

[ddol1]

So here it is - to me marriage, children, family is worth a thousand risks at being happy, in a way complete as a person happy with who I am and to know when I turn my head in the morning this person beside me gives me the comfort of knowing that she WILL be there for me - better or worse.

I must be one of those sappy romantics that truly believes. FOR WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH every person that finds out can't believe it. We "should have been divorced 10 times over" to what we made it through as a couple and now just as the brass ring is in sight she finally had enough. But for me it had to happen because if it didn't continuing as we were was eating me alive. She just stopped trying when I hit my lowest point it was too much for her - ok. But if what I have learned even comes close to panning out it will be a shame - why because if it actually takes one specific perscription to rebalance my brain and I would again be the person i was 8 or 10 years ago..... but I wait to see a person who has helped countless people just like me??? I remain skeptical and hopefull all at the same time........

Either way even after going through what I am living now, a living horror, down the road if the right oerson comes into my life and we are sure, as sure as we both can be - I would be willing to take that risk of being "complete" once again. Life is too short. But do what it takes to be sure in your heart and soul that you have the right person and remember that from that dday forward you treat each other as if you were just married, listen to your partner and never ever take this person for granted.

Now what happened in this relationship?????? Breaks my heart. I am still that romantic deep down.

[shellshocked22]

To Kingdom: Congratulations my friend; trust me you've just dodged a potentially expensive bullet. I suspect you now also have a much better understanding of what COULD (50% likelihood) happen to you should you marry and things go south. At the very least, if you get married in the future and you get divorced, you'll at least know you entered into it knowing the risk !

To Pursuing Happiness: I can only imagine your replies but I'll bite....

1) I'm NOT saying to avoid female companionship. I agree humans are pre-wired to seek this type of relationship and I also concur it's generally a good thing.

2) What I'm NOT keen on is the govt interference/ Big Brother dictating what will happen if we break up. As you note, I also agree that if even if ONE partner is unhappy for whatever reason, by all means he/she can leave.

3) What I DON"t think is fair that if one person leaves, the other partner (who may not even want a divorce) is FORCED to pay potentially HUGE amounts of money for potenitally the rest of their LIFE to that one that decides to bugger off. You're obviously female so let me guess, I bet you RECEIVED $$$$ after your divorce, right ? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you perhaps were the stay at home mom and I appreciate that. BUT, assuming you had traditional set up, I suspect your hubby was the one who ALSO busted his ass working to provide $$$ for the family for years. But guess what, are you PAYING HIM for his years of labour ? And, even if roles were reveresed and you worked and he stayed home, I don't think you should have to pay HIM for decades either. Maybe help him for a couple of years with rent but then let him get a job and support himself; that's the "real world"

4) All I'm saying is that if two people break up, just do it and don't bankrupt the other. IF one person wants to be "taken care of" after the divorce THEN THEY should insist on a pre-nup that spells out their demands. Honestly, I bet the majority of couples have NO IDEA of the horrible financial contract that comes with marriage by default. Funny how the govt doesn't give FULL DISCLOSURE on that little item isn't it ?

5) Answer me this.... WHY should a couple get married (other than to ensure the lessor earner a big "pay day" should one decide to split. Why not just decide to date exclusively and not formally live together. Are you saying a couple can't be happy unless they get formally married ? We all know that marriage doesn't remotely guarantee committment and I would argue the big pay day may encourage divorce.

Comments lol ?

[Kingdom]

Hey Kingdom:

Again, I think you're very smart to look at what COULD happen. After all, no one THINKS they will be the 50% whose marriages fly apart but you can't ignore it ! Everyone of course has their own opinions. SOME people get through divorce relatively unscathed. Of course they think divorce is "not too bad".

Take care and good luck !

Thank you shellshocked, some of the older guys at work who ARE married have told me they’re advising their sons not to marry due to the current divorce and child custody laws; these are not angry old men but educated men who have been with their wives for 25+ years in senior management.

Marriage does not mean commitment at all, I’m not proud of it but there were a few married women who I used to hook up with on girls night out when I was in school..only to find out they received child custody once their husbands found out. I know it doesn’t matter, but had I known they were married – I would not have invited them back to my place as it’s not my intention to break up a family.

Sorry Mess I disagree. Shared parenting is not as automatic as you seem to imply, suggesting that if they were sharing parenting while in the relationship. In fact most of us that have even through the system and are great dads can certainly prove otherwise the system is biased and men get screwed not only by their ex's but by the multibillion dollar industry that thrives on adversarial parents. The chance you mention should be ideal but is far from it in my opinion. I would close by saying that things seem to be changing for the better towards men, it has a long, long way to go before its 'fair'.

This is my main concern, an industry which thrives on an adversarial process instead of doing what’s best for the children. I’m still new to this forum, but would be interested in seeing how the system treats fathers.

In fact, there's recent data that the most common fundamental fact among human beings across socioeconomic and geographical location is the desire to love, be loved, and bond with one partner. In fact, single men die earlier than any other group. BBC News | HEALTH | Single men 'die younger' (there are many, many articles on the subject..this is just one). The discovery channel just did a 3-day special on love, commitment and manogamy...you should watch it.

Does that study include non-married men who are in relationships? Most people (men and women) take absolutely horrible care of their bodies after high school. As an amateur bodybuilder (competed) for some years and would never date someone with poor eating habits.

That being said, is there a difference in the mental health benefits one receives when married compared to being in a unmarried relationship?
This isn’t the first time in this thread you’ve mentioned my testicles – it’s both sad and amusing that you attack my masculinity. Was your ex a control freak? Again, please don’t project your life failures onto me. That might’ve worked if I was 14, but now you’re just coming off as a sad old woman.

Dude, its pretty silly to resort to a personal attack because you can't counter what I'm saying. I'm not hurt about my divorce...it was entirely my choice...nor do I consider my long marriage a failure. I have lovely children...my marriage just ran its course...like many do. You came here asking a stupid question now grow a pair of danglies and listen to opinions that don't support the pre-conceived assumptions and fears you walked in with. You can't learn anything if you think you know it all. Stop pouting like a classic control-freak because not everyone agrees with you.

Do you have a mental illness? (Serious question)

Was your ex a control freak? I really think you’re projecting your failures on me and I don’t know if you realize it.

Really??? You need someone to explain that to you? Obviously because its a big step...one needs to be mature when making it. The very reason for the high divorce statistic is because its very hard to know at your age what changes you will go through and what you will need later in life. Maturity is a requirement because you need to make sure that you understand the incredible commitment that comes from the work to maintain a married life. You need to grasp that your set of needs and your spouses will change in time and if you do not stay in sync, your marriage will probably not survive.

Its the reason that people that marry later in life have more successful longevity statistics.

Anyway, I find this whole thread absolutely hilarious...so thanks for that.

Were you mature when you married or did you settle?

[Kingdom]

Pursuinghappiness, I've just looked at your profile and it seems your ex was hurtful/controlling/abusive. I sympathize with your situation but that does not give you the right to be mean-spirited and hostile.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Hi Shellshocked:

Please understand, Its not that I completely disagree with anything you've said exactly. I understand the context and scope of what you said. I just think its completely goofy to ask the question in the first place...especially considering the nature of the forum. I'm also highly amused...I'm enjoying the thread so thanks for biting. Here's my response:

1) I agree

2) The government interferes in property disputes (forgive my referring to custody disputes as "property" but it essence thats what childre are...chattel of the marriage). Ruling goverment bodies have always gotten involved in this....Remember King Solomon suggesting to divide the baby in half. I'm not sure how you could rectify these things between warring spouses without an authoritative body making a determination but its something interesting to consider.

3) I don't receive support as I'm not divorced yet. And although I wasn't a stay-at-home mom, I worked almost my whole marriage....I did...with consent of my then-husband have to quit two very good jobs for childcare reasons and child sickness while he was able to stay at his. Funny enough, he has zero issue with paying a small amount of spousal support I've requested due to my having to change jobs...he's fine with it but he has a MAJOR issue with the fact that I'm able to divorce him at all. He has told my family that he doesn't believe divorce should be allowed if there are minor children still in the marriage. We both "busted our asses" working. Only I also worked and had the responsibility of the children and household. Hence, my decision to divorce. I also plan to remarry a man that is also divorced, a career professional and paying his ex a fairly large amount of spousal support. She was mostly a SAHM and he has no issue with paying it either because his ex-spouse is now working full-time since their kids are out of the house. Not all ex-spouses mind paying fair support if they were involved in the family decision for one spouse to modify or give up a career....however I would agree that the support should be fair and termed.

4) I have no issue with a consentual pre-nup. I wouldn't sign one...but if other people decide its a criteria for marriage...nothing wrong with it.

5) I don't think anyone HAS to get married. It should be a choice. Its something I personally believe in but if you don't...by all means, don't do it. What I took issue with is some fear-laden, silly kid coming into a divorce forum with his mind already made up asking whether or not he should get married. That's just stupid. Very very funny...but stupid.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Kingdom:

Seriously...give up. You aren't equipped to insult me and your attempts at trying obviously just go to prove my previous points about your state of maturation. That you can't listen to an opposing opinion is EXACTLY my premise....because you came in here with your mind made up which is the very essence of the definition of ignorance. Thanks for "reading up" on me though...I'm flattered. Do I intimidate you that much?

If you mistook my high level of amusement for hostility...forgive me. Unfortunately since I'm typing its easy to misinterpret what I'm trying to convey. I assure you that you don't raise any negative emotion in me whatsoever. I think you're extremely amusing. I actually have been laughing out loud at your posts.

[shellshocked22]

I disagree with your assessment of Kingdom. For a young guy, he's shown EXCEPTIONAL wisdom in "looking before he leaps". Who better to canvass for opinions than those whose marriage has gone to hell and who have experienced how unfair the bulk of divorce laws are ?

Interesting how he mentioned that older, MARRIED fellows are advising sons NOT to get married due to unfair divorce laws. I would also advise any guy thinking of marriage to think long and hard about it due to current laws which quite frankly I think will get worse before they get better (if at all).

Funny, I think in the long run these laws will hurt mainly women since the "quality" guys (ie. the ones who either have assets or good potential to acquire them) will be scared away from marriage. Again, don't think that not being married = being a lonely hermit. Quite frankly I think most guys would agree that single guys get way more "action" than those who are married lol.

However, guys who have earnings potential (or who already do) will shy away from any kind of permanent relationship unless at a minimum the female makes similar money (even that is no guararntee but it helps !). From a "social" perspective, I don't think its desirable that the rich get richer and the social gaps in wealth get even larger. Yet, the govt is essentially saying IF you marry someone with a big earnings gap you'll pay dearly if you divorce. In other words, to protect yourself, marry someone with similar income.

Its quite sad and obviously not very romantic that choosing a life partner should be so fraught with danger and you need an accountant to screen dates lol. Yet, that's the reality of it.

I just think the attitude of "the world owes me" is not right. Yet, our govt seems to be encouraging it. Funny, I bet if the govt had to pay support, it wouldn't be any where near as "generous" as they so self righteously maintain, provided of course someone else pays the bill.

Put it this way, if you worked for a company for 20 years and YOU quit (or even if they fired you), would anyone really expect to be "taken care of" since they were a long time employee.

At a minimum, the govt should MANDATE that before a marriage can be granted, that BOTH parties have to be well schooled in current divorce laws. However, that won't happen since the govt (and their lawyer buddies) make WAY too much money off divorces. Why else does the govt not require "full" disclosure. Hell, even carnival rides and ski tickets spell out the risk you're taking ! Yet the govt does NOTHING to advertise the lousy financial deal marriage effectively locks you into (again, I'm talking the higher wage earner; the other partner gets a cash windfall).

[Pursuinghappiness]

Was your ex a control freak? Again, please don’t project your life failures onto me. That might’ve worked if I was 14, but now you’re just coming off as a sad old woman.

Was your ex a control freak? I really think you’re projecting your failures on me and I don’t know if you realize it.

Pursuinghappiness, I've just looked at your profile and it seems your ex was hurtful/controlling/abusive. I sympathize with your situation but that does not give you the right to be mean-spirited and hostile.

You're very repetitive. You need to try harder a vary it a bit if you want to make an impact. I don't appreciate you calling me old either....that was just mean. I'm not "old", I'm well travelled.

What I'm trying to tell you is that when you're in a long-term relationship...people change. My stbx today isn't the same person as the one I initially married. So what most people try to do is to find common ground, get relationship help, work on themselves, ask their spouse to work on their issues, etc.

Since you want to get personal (its all you've got the mental capacity for), when my stbx got more controlling in our marriage, I asked him to get help and when wouldn't, I decided to ask for an amicable divorce. It became hostile when he realized that I meant it by asking for legal mediation. Believe me, I'm not the type of woman you can control. I'm a hippy...I don't like rules (lol, unless they benefit me). For most of our 20-year marriage, I pretty much wore the pants (and the thongs). Seriously, you're reading my posts and haven't realized that I'm a bit on the dominant-side?? Couldn't even figure that out?

The one constant in life is change. Everyone changes. The change is based on internal factors (who you and your spouse are emotionally and physically) and external factors (in-laws, children, jobs, etc). Most marriages don't withstand the change because its impossible to predict and its even harder to stay compatible over long periods of time unless you're completely committed to the staying compatible through change.

Getting divorced isn't always indicative of failure..that's idiotic. It sometimes involves one or both people not making a commitment to work on things...or an inability to work on things...or a complete fatal incompatibility that becomes more pronounced over time. Divorce is simply a way to remedy things that can't otherwise be remedied. There are plenty of people that stay married in very very dysfunctional marriages. I would consider that more of a failure. Although again, your arguments are simplistic and indicative of someone with no life perspective. (pssst, sleeping with married women doesn't give you life perspective)

I do agree with part of what you walked in here with. Its a blessing that you don't want to marry. You mostly likely wouldn't make it for any length of time...or even more likely, she won't be able to tolerate you for long. You really are doing her a favor.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Shellshocked:

I disagree with your assessment of the OP. He reminds me of people I used work with in research who come in with a hypothesis they're so sure of that they throw out any data that doesn't support their already preconceived conclusion. Its pure intellectual dishonesty. Its like my leaving here, heading over to the Bulemia Forum and asking if they agree with me that eating more than 8 carrot sticks and yogurt makes you gain weight..and the first person that disagrees with me I'm going to call a fat-ass.

I can find lots of older men who'd disagree with the rest of what you said...including my current partner. He's well-travelled (older...lol), has an amazing career and business, an ex-wife from a long-term marriage who he pays spousal support to...and yet he plans to remarry. And he isn't the first man that I met after separating who was interested in marriage after divorce. There are many, many men who want to remarry and believe that they'll have better marriages the second time around since they're more self-aware.

I would suggest that coming on to this particular forum probably isn't the best cross-section of people to ask about whether or not you should get married unless you obviously are trying to find facts to support something that you've already decided. Its a douchebag thing to do. Particularly since, he actively venemously rejects anyone who disagrees with his preconceived set of beliefs. Again, you cannot get help on here to decide whether or not to marry. Its a very specific decision based on a very specific set of circumstances. You could certainly ask about precautions, things to consider or look out for, etc...but even that you have to have the maturity to take with a grain of salt considering the source.

I also disagree with the "cash windfall" comment as statistically neither spouse does better after divorce actually. Both spouses will experience a decline in lifestyle. For me, that's not a big deal since my freedom to choose divorce is far more important than money.

Again, I completely understand if you would choose not to remarry. But a lot of divorced men and women do choose to do it again. Marriage will always in part be a leap of faith but great success is possible if people go into with a good set of compatibility factors and work to maintain it over time. And I would tell you that knowing people who have wonderful marriages, I think its worth the risk. But again its all about personal choice....to each their own.

[shellshocked22]

Hey Pursuinghappiness:

You're obviously intelligent and I don't disagree with many of your comments. BUT, the OP's question was basically: "Do guys (assuming they earn more than spouse) typically get a "raw deal" in the event of divorce under the current Family Law regime.

Our little back and forth has got somewhat off topic in that you are discussing whether marriage can work long term. Obviously (at least 50% of the time) it can; I don't disagree with that.

However, the main point of discussion is whether the divorce laws are fair to the "higher wage earner" and I would suggest MOST guys, especially if the spouse earned a lot less than them, would say it IS. Your friend who's itching to get married again I'm guessing didn't get too badly "burned". Either that or he's a masochist lol. Then again, some people are destined to repeat the same mistake, or simply have a high tolerance for risk (how many people keep gambling till they're broke even after repeatedly losing ?).

I don't mean to sound nasty, but you mentioned that you don't really care about money. So, equalization payments aside, are you receiving SS or CS ? IF you are PAYING SS or CS, then in my opinion you are being genuine in your feelings which appear to be divorce laws ARE fair to higher income earner. IF you are RECEIVING CS or SS, then obviously you're biased since the system is benefiting you at the expense of your ex.

Back to you......

[shellshocked22]

Sorry, just realized that you're not YET receiving support. Looks like the kids are overage for CS BUT that you're going for SS.

Doesn't that disqualify you somewhat on being impartial since you're the "victor" under Family Law. You imply your spouse "owes" you since you changed jobs/were out of the work force for a bit. Well, didn't you benefit from your spouse's income while you were together ?

It kills me that the lower earning spouse has "he owes me" mentality especially if no kids involved who are young.

You obviously are intelligent and can work. Why can't you just "move on" and earn your OWN money WITHOUT siphoning it from your ex ? For someone who claims they are strong and independent, funny why you "need" SS. Why not just show your independence and work your tail off ? Yes, I know the govt says "you're entitled", but I still don't think its fair. I suspect if the shoe was reversed, you wouldn't be such a cheerleader for Family Law !

I also disagree that the "lower wage earner" is worse off in every case. What about the case where that person basically takes 50% of the other spouse's income. She/he gets big bucks before they even wake up. IF they decide to work, they get even more. Especially in a case where they would not have enjoyed the "married" lifestyle had they not hooked up with a high wage earner.