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  • spousal/child support question

    We are in the middle of writing up the SA. I have a question about support.

    I make 87,500 and my wife makes 110,000. What is the child support payment on that amount if we will have joint custody and 50/50 access? In reality it will be closer to 60/40 because she is away on business frequently. She will be moving up the ladder quite quickly and in the next year or two her income will be closer to 125 000.

    Is the child support payment different then the contributions we both make for daycare? My understanding is she will have to contribute a little more then me because of her making more. Correct?

    Should I push for some sort of compensation (spousal) because of the increase in her income and the fact that I will be with the kids up to 60% of the time or is that a losing battle and I should move on??

    I am a teacher and have a secure job with a great pension - unfortunately she will be taking half of it! lol
    She also does not have a lot of investments in her name so the pension trasfer will be pretty close to half over a 10 year period.

    Thanks,

  • #2
    Look at the table amount for each of your incomes. She will owe you the difference b/w what each of you would pay.

    It won't be a lot, so consider bargaining away what she owes you for CS against her entitlement to your pension.

    Comment


    • #3
      You are working it out amicably between the two of you? Congratulations, you are saving about $20k each, at minimum. Count that $20k towards your settlement amount, she could easily afford to give you a hard time if you start going after every nickel and dime.

      You aren't absolutely obligated to go "by the book", and if you round things off to settle quickly then like I say, you are saving tens of thousands.

      You should look over the Federal Guidelines yourself and use the worksheets they give and directly quote the tables. Why, because if you say to your ex "Some guy on the internet told me how to do it on a napkin while I was having a drink at the bar and using my laptop on the wifi" she will not be happy with the numbers. Download the worksheets and print them and fill them out and provide her with a copy just so you both know you agree on the figures and nothing was left out.

      Short answer to your questions: The offset has her paying you $180 per month CS based on your numbers, and one child. You should go through the worksheets though and fill them out properly and account for income variation, and show her something concrete. The idea should be that these numbers aren't "yours" they are from the government website and she should be confident about that. She may not argue now but she may argue in 6 months.

      For expenses, usually you are talking child care and any medical expenses over $100 per year. You can include sports activities or other lessons if they are a) a cost that someone in your income bracket would consider extraordinary and b) generally something that is somewhat vocational, like will lead to a competitve level, a career, future coaching, scholarship etc. The cost has to make it a special expense, and it shouldn't be just for fun, it should be justifiable. There is wiggle room.

      In general expenses should be shared equally in your case, the child support is supposed to equalize your budget for the child and you each pay for clothes, transportation and basic sports and rec activities. The section 7 expenses would be split proportionate to your income. You could do this through the CS and increase the monthly amount, or you could split it by having you each pay proportionately to the provider. If you each write a cheque then you each can show you are involved with your child and the administration of the childcare is fully aware of this because you are both taking turns paying. In my case this is prefered, but you should decide for yourself.

      As far as spousal goes, it doesn't sound like your marriage limited your career. Your income isn't (using superficial numbers) drasticly lower than hers. Spousal would be calculated after child support is paid, and with children it is based on net after tax income, so you don't end up that far below her. This is a fight you won't win and it will kill your amicable negotiations.

      Pension wise, since she will have a greater income going forward, you should try to cut a deal on that and ask to limit the pension split, but again if it ends up looking like it will push you into lawyers' offices then it's not worth it. Once this is all finalized and you are moving on with your life, you will appreciate that you settled faster and with less fuss.

      Comment


      • #4
        I just talked to my lawyer and he told me as long as there is under 60/40 split, there is no child support. Is this correct? We will have shared custody, 50/50 access. I make 89500 and my wife makes 110000. There will be a difference in our contribution towards child care but definitely no child support.

        Was I misinformed??

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by donnel8 View Post
          I just talked to my lawyer and he told me as long as there is under 60/40 split, there is no child support. Is this correct? We will have shared custody, 50/50 access. I make 89500 and my wife makes 110000. There will be a difference in our contribution towards child care but definitely no child support.

          Was I misinformed??
          Your lawyer is not 100% correct, but may not be off by much.

          The formula that is supposed to be used in cases like this is you take her guideline CS amount and your guideline amount and the lower number from the higher number.

          So she makes $110,000 a year which equals $955 a month in support. You make $89,500 which equals $794 a month in support. So the difference would be that she pays you $161 a month as a sort of equalization.

          However, given both your incomes and the fact that the difference is only $161, which compared to your incomes in negliable, a judge may not order c/s from her to you. And I doubt $161 is worth the cost it would take in legal fees to fight her for c/s (which you may not even get).

          Comment


          • #6
            the difference for us is $93 a month. Both lawyers thought that I shouldn't even be paying, given that I am also paying part time tuition (which would reduce the payment effectively to about $0). But I still pay. WHY? because if he ever gets vindictive and seeks retroactive pay, I might be on the hook for thousands!. Until a judge decides (or we sign an SA) I will keep paying. Actually, the amount will be going down July 1 to about $30 difference, and I will still pay.

            If your lawyer has recommended you don't pay, then I suggest you put the money aside until things are finalized. Even after 6 months you could be asked to come up with $1000+!

            Comment


            • #7
              AH me, YOU are the one who should be paid. Oops!
              Then it is up to you whether you ask her to pay. It makes for a good bargaining chip!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by donnel8 View Post
                I just talked to my lawyer and he told me as long as there is under 60/40 split, there is no child support. Is this correct? We will have shared custody, 50/50 access. I make 89500 and my wife makes 110000. There will be a difference in our contribution towards child care but definitely no child support.

                Was I misinformed??
                Ask your lawyer to cite the paragraph of the Family Law Act and/or any court decisions he is using because you want to get a second opinion for his legal advice.

                Tell him you want this as an official advice in writing, signed by him, that you can show to another lawyer.

                He is wrong, and if he is trying to give you a helpful compromise position he should say so. All decisions in your case are yours to make, they should be informed decisions, and your lawyer should be a reliable source of information.

                It sounds like, just going by your short description, he is cutting corners and manipulating you to take the quick and easy solution HE prefers. He is not necessarily wrong, but it's not his decision to make.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am totally confused.

                  We are having one lawyer draw up the separation agreement then I am going to take it for independent legal advice and feedback. I don't know where he is getting the info from then to be honest. He stated that as much as we can agree on now will save thousands if we can avoid lengthy negotiations down the road. Is there a paragraph of the Family Law act I can send to him and ask for clarification?

                  We have two kids so when I plug it into the Federal Tables I get the following

                  Her support 1526.00
                  My support 1275.00
                  The difference 251.00 - should be paid to me

                  I am sure he is trying to draw a compromise. How hard should I push for this? Until what age should a parent pay support? If I have to hire my own lawer to fight this out is it worth it?

                  All tough questions I do not have answers to!

                  Can anyone give some additional suggestions and/or examples of what is happening in your own SA with child support? We have joint parenting (or custody whatever you want to call it) and equal access.

                  While I want to be fair and not argue over minimal costs, 251 per month does not seem minimal to me.

                  Advice??

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    $251 is not minimal. But if you fight it then you are going to end up with court costs that equal a whole lot more.

                    The standard is to adjust incomes every July 1st according to your Line 150 and the table guidelines. it's reasonable to assume that both of you are going to see changes in income over time, and you need to address that.

                    If you make a wash of the difference, how much does that apply for? What if she gets a huge raise and should be paying you $500 offset? What if she loses her job? Is she going to be as fair to you (and make a wash of what you would pay her?)

                    As much as you want to just sign this and get it over with, you need to remember that this SA will stand for a LONG time. You need to think about the future and make sure that whatever you agree on will be able to address changing circumstances as much as possible.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Actually, when you're making near $90k a year or about $7,500 a month, $251 can seem insignificant....it is a matter of relativity.

                      If he is representing both sides, he is mostly trying to make this as smooth as possible and probably realizes that money can be a huge deal breaker. However, if he is representing both sides he has an ethical obligation to you to represent your best interests and inform you of anything you may be entitled to.

                      As for what age is child support is paid, it is until the child is:

                      a) over the age of 18 and no longer in school; or
                      b) married or otherwise emancipated from the receiver parent.

                      There was a recent case where a man had to continue to pay child support while his adult child worked towards their PhD. Generally it is paided for 1 under-graduate degree, but some circumstances may change that (payors income and means to pay for an extended period etc).

                      My separation agreement provides that I pay support based on my income. Recent court decisions have provided that it is the obligation of the payor to advise of any increase or decrease in earnings, which would affect child support. In your case, due to the share custody, it would an obligation on BOTH of you to tell the other how much you made the previous year as it affects how you determine the numbers for payment.

                      IMO, if you don't need the $251, I would use it as a barganing chip. If she wants part of your pension state that you want child support and say you are willing to wave it if she leaves your pension alone. $251x12x~10 years = over $30k, so if she is going after anything less than that, she will lose money in the long run. And if you children are young, like 5-9, support can be up to 15-18 years.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am a teacher and take home is 4000 a month, but point taken. I am sure I can survive without the 250.00 but maybe it is the principle of the things that irks me a little. My kids are 8 and 3.

                        I cannot get away from the pension split - I will lose half of that but some of it will be offset but her RRSPs.

                        I spoke to my lawyer again and he said that given our similar incomes and equal access (joint custody), the support would be reduced and most probably waived. He said there are extraordinary reasons and cases where support is necessary but not in a case like mine.

                        I guess I will let this go because I am not interested in battling in court for 250.00/month. My job is extremely secure. Hers is not and while she has the potential to make a lot more in years to come, the security of it will always be a question.

                        Can I write something in the SA that child support is a non issue and will continue to be a non issue as both parties have waived any entitlement now and in the future??

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by donnel8 View Post
                          I am a teacher and take home is 4000 a month, but point taken. I am sure I can survive without the 250.00 but maybe it is the principle of the things that irks me a little. My kids are 8 and 3.
                          I was thinking grosse more then net income. But I can definitely see how this may irk you.

                          I cannot get away from the pension split - I will lose half of that but some of it will be offset but her RRSPs.
                          That sucks, but hopefully it won't hurt too badly.

                          I spoke to my lawyer again and he said that given our similar incomes and equal access (joint custody), the support would be reduced and most probably waived. He said there are extraordinary reasons and cases where support is necessary but not in a case like mine.
                          I don't believe he is correct based on what you said here, as c/s support is for the child and is the child's right to receive it. IMO, had you been the higher income earner I can almost guarantee the c/s issue would be on the table. He is right that a judge may or may not grant child support as you are both capable of supporting yourselves and difference isn't all that much. It isn't like she is making $50k and you making $30k, where it would be more of a necessity.

                          I guess I will let this go because I am not interested in battling in court for 250.00/month.
                          I wouldn't bother at this point either.

                          Hers is not and while she has the potential to make a lot more in years to come, the security of it will always be a question.
                          Can I write something in the SA that child support is a non issue and will continue to be a non issue as both parties have waived any entitlement now and in the future??
                          The two above quotes have similar issues that need to be brought up:

                          1. What if she starts earning over $200k a year? Do you want anything in your agreement that states you are waiving c/s when there is such a disparity in incomes?

                          2. You mention her job isn't that secure. What if she loses it? I can guarantee she will come after you for support then.

                          3. Child support is a right of the child. While parents have made agreements where no c/s is to be transferred, it is the child who is the one who ultimately has the right to receive the support. A judge is also likely to determine that if either 1 or 2 above happen, your agreement about no support isn't worth the paper it is written on.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Nope. You can't waive CS. It's not YOURS or HERS to waive. Child Support is the right of the child. The topic can be reopened at ANY time with sufficient material change in circumstances by either party.

                            (ie. she loses her job)

                            HOWEVER, you could always write in a clause along the lines of the following:

                            1. The parties agree to exchange income tax returns each year, and calculate child support using offset table amounts.

                            2. The parties agree that the CS will be paid into an RESP for the children and that the RESP amount will be applied to the costs of the children's post secondary education before any proportional calculations are made.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              as to the above, you would need to clarify that the CS OFFSET would go into the RESP, not the full amount. You also need to clarify that the RESP money would not count towards either of your post secondary contributions if the account was accessible to both of you.

                              What if one of you did lose your job and you actually needed that money to support the child? Do you want that money being court ordered into an account and not available to cover food or rent?

                              I understand that you are trying to negotiate here, but it is a tangled web you weave. You can't guarantee she would treat you as fairly should the table be turned. I'm not saying don't give up the offset, just realize that you may not get the same treatment if circumstances change. You may end up having to pay her later.

                              Comment

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