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  • I think she is working - she wont finalize seperation agreement

    I have been seperated for 2 years now and not close to coming to an agreement.

    My ex picks and chooses what she wants to work on, and will not finalize the deal so I can move on. I am with someone else now, and we would like to be able to move forward with our life.

    I have reason to beleive my ex is owner or part owner of a gym (I have requested ownership details from the registry); however, she continuously denies having any income. I am paying her over $5000/month in spousal and child support (we have two chidlren together). The child support payment is straight forward, but the spousal support was based on her being a staying at home mom, and now I hear she is always at the gym. She wants copies of my 2011 T4 in an effort to re-evaluate her spousal support.

    She seems to only care about the money, and will not finalize any other detail, and will not be honest about her own income. What can I do to push this along further? How can I use the fact that she is at the gym (puts the children in the gym care) as means to reduce spousal? She is young, educated, and skilled, there is no reason she cant work. She claims to only be at the gym "volunteering".

    Any advice is appreciated.

  • #2
    A little bit more information will probably help members on this forum to provide you with more accurate and helpful responses. A couple of questions:

    1. Are you both represented (ie. have hired lawyers to negotiate the separation agreement), or are you negotiating the agreement on your own?

    2. Have child custody/access issues been ironed out?

    3. Has she provided financial disclosure to you?

    4. How long was the marriage/relationship? Has your ex always been a stay-at-home mom (this will help to determine income that can be imputed to her)?

    Comment


    • #3
      1) We were both represented, then decided (after child support and spousal support was finalized) to iron out the other details (assets and debts) ourselves.

      2) She lives in BC with both the children. We both agreed that visits would be fewer; however longer. I fly the children here (with a chaperone) a few times a year. I make every attempt to skype the children and/or phone the children a couple of times a week. She refuses to have the children call me or to help foster a relationship. Many times I text her asking whether I can skype with the boys, and she will simply respond with "no" or "later" or not even respond at all.

      3. We had financial disclosure a year ago (prior to her possibly owning the gym and/or working there) but have not had it since. She has served me with notice to provide my taxes for 2011 (as per section 25 child support) - I am requesting hers; however, I'm not sure she has to provide them

      4. We were married for less than 2 years, and together for 8 years. She worked prior to having children, then did not work once our first was born. (My children are 2 and 4) During our relationship we paid to have her take an accounting program. Since seperation she has paid (with her spousal support I'd assume) to have herself certified as a trainer. She is 28 years old.

      Comment


      • #4
        So you both had lawyers iron out support? Was imputing income to your ex looked at at that point? If not, why not? 28 is “young” in the eyes of the court/family law and if she is educated or have been in the work force earning a wage before, there is the expectation that she will be able to resume earning at her previous wage levels if not more (in the future), but at the very least she should be imputed an income at minimum wage levels for support purposes and also for calculating Section 7 expenses.

        You live in Ontario then? Was she previously in Ontario with the children as well? Are you footing all the costs for flying the children back to Ontario? Was there discussion about reducing your child support amount to account for your higher expenses to ferry the children back and forth for your access?

        If you have good reason to believe (and actual evidence, preferably) that she now has a job and thus spousal support would need to be recalculated based on the new figures, she would need to provide financial disclosure to you as well. If she wants to claim Section 7 expenses proportionate to income she will need to exchange her NOA information with you as well.

        What other matters are waiting to be finalized for your separation agreement??

        If you don’t have court ordered spousal support yet, and she is stalling finalizing the agreement or refusing to provide honest/required disclosure, then you can stop paying spousal support (don’t stop paying child support!!) to provide an “incentive” for her to start moving things along. However, not knowing enough about your situation, I can’t say whether that’s a recommended measure at this point in time yet/or not.

        Comment


        • #5
          Child Support was established when we both had our lawyers, and an order was made for spousal support as well. When spousal support was determined she did not have any income and was living at her parents house. Spousal support was set at $2400/month until a further order was made and/or a mutual agreement was made.

          We both lived in Edmonton, Alberta and when she left she moved the boys 7 hours away to BC. I later was required to transfer (with work) to Ontario. I foot all the costs to fly the children here, and pay for an additional ticket (my mother) to chaperone them. I have mentioned looking at reducing child support due to the additional costs to see them, but she says it won't happen because I was the one that made the decision to move so far. Is that accurate?

          I am working on the evidence of her working and/or owning the gym. I have prepared an email to her (not sent yet) requesting her financials. Is there any actual requirement for her to send them to me upon my request?

          We have sold the matrimonial home and split the equity and I signed over the family car (at the time I had a company car). I am making all the credit card payments (approx $500/month); however have not sorted out how the reminaing balances will be paid (approx. $15,000). She is requesting all the RRSP's ($20,000), and my stock options ($15,000). We own a house in Cranbrook, BC (currently being rented) that we are going to sell, and a loan we are going to split. She took all the home contents (and I mean all! she left me with my clothes, and old bed, sofa and tv).

          She is requesting Spousal support to be paid until September 2014, then re-evaluated. That would mean 4 years of spousal support, on a 2 year marriage - at $2600/month. Nuts! After child support, spousal support, credit card payments, and my own minimal living expenses I would not be able to support myself unless it was for my new partner.

          I want child support reduced based on the expense to be able to see them, spousal support reduced or eliminiated, and the other details finalized so I can get divorced.

          Comment


          • #6
            When you say an “order” was made, was this an actual issued by the court? Since there is no separation agreement in place yet, I’m assuming that this was an order based on consent? Or was there an actual conference/motion in court and a resulting order based on consent?

            In my opinion, your lawyer did you a disservice by not pressing for income being imputed to her. She’s young, educated, has earned a wage before in the workforce, even an imputed minimum wage income would have at least helped a little with the spousal support figures. I helped a friend through his acrimonious divorce, his ex had worked before earning $60K per annum, but refused to work after they were together, stayed with her parents, and had no plans for ever working again. She very begrudgingly had income imputed to her at $40K. He had to fight for it, but it made a difference in terms of spousal support amounts and section 7 expenses. If you are planning to revisit your previously agreed upon spousal support quantum and duration, I strongly suggest trying your best to have an income imputed to her.

            You both lived in Edmonton and then SHE moved away first to BC. Even if you have stayed in Edmonton you would still have to incur increased travel costs for access, and in that situation, SHE should be responsible for covering these costs since she was the one who moved away from Edmonton to BC. However, now that you are in Ontario, the situation is a little more murky. Still, you should still be able to argue for some kind of relief in terms of support paid. Hopefully more experienced/knowledgable members will chime in and comment on this matter.

            When the support “order” was issued/established, was there a clause stating that both of you will exchange financial information on a yearly basis for purposes of adjusting support/Section 7 expenses? If so, then yes, she is required to provide you with her relevant financials when requested.

            It doesn’t sound like proper equalization was done, even though the matrimonial home was sold and the equity split. You should endeavour to figure this out as soon as possible. Unless there are complicated matters of inheritance etc, it is typically fairly straightforward matter of deducting liabilities from assets and then splitting that amount in half. There are lots of helpful posts on here on equalization and lots of information available online, if you are doing this on your own without a lawyer.

            If you were together 8 years, that is likely the time frame she is using to justify 4 years of support. Again, this can be argued against from your end, but it sounds like this was what you agreed to previously, unless you want to reopen it again. If, like you said, an “order” was issued on spousal support, was there no provision on a termination or review date???

            I don’t think what you are asking for is unreasonable at all, but then she has to be willing to want to be reasonable/negotiate, or you are going to have to be willing to fight for it and have some kind of leverage or incentive for her to want to “play nice”.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you so much for your replies - they have been so helpful.

              We did not agree to the spousal support amount. It was ordered by the court during one of our meetings with our lawyers - $2400/month going forward until such time a new order is made or the parties reach a mutual agreement". She later requested that it continue until our youngest is in school full time (Sept 2014) - not yet agreed too. My lawyer did minimal in supporting me, and quite frankly just seemed to be the paper processor. It was so bad that I actually argued my bill with him, and later we agreed that I only pay half of the total I owed to him.

              We never had an agreement or order with regards to providing ecah other with financials for the purpose of re-evaluating child and/or spousal support. Of course, under section 25 I am required to provide her with my financials upon request for the purposes of determining child support. Under section 25 it also indicates that if her income was used in determining the child support payments then I can request financials from her. Technically it wasn't used, because she didnt have any income - but I am going to try. On the Financial Statement she submitted she did indicate "baby bonus" as her income.

              I dont seem to have much leverage or incentive for her to play nice. I tried to with hold signing off on the childrens passports so she can take a trip with them this year, but quickly realized she could just take the situation to court and I'd more than likely lose (for not having a good reason to not sign them) and have to pay her costs. I have no leverage, and she knows it. She knows I want to move on with my life with my new partner, and I think she is still too miserable to just let go and let me move on.

              Comment


              • #8
                I’m assuming the order for spousal support was issued in Alberta? I’m not familiar with how the family court system works over there, so i can’t comment on what transpired with regards to that. If it was stated that “until such time a new order is made”, was there an expectation that both parties eventually return to court to further review or follow up on this issue??

                You have leverage – there are always options, it’s just a matter of whether such options are palatable to you or not, and what you are willing to fight for/live with. In a situation whereby both parties want something from the other, there are always leverages and incentives/disincentives that can be put into play on both ends. For instance, she’s making it clear that the high level of spousal support you’re paying her is important to her, at least until a certain date (Sep 2014). Depending on how you approach negotiating with her for what YOU want to gain/move along, that’s leverage that you can use. With children in the picture though, things can get a little more complicated.

                It doesn’t sound like anything was settled at all. If I were you, I would seek to slap on an effective termination date for spousal, get spousal reviewed to a more realistic/reasonable amount (not knowing the numbers involved here can’t really say what that is), get equalization properly done, and have fair terms on access and access costs fairly spelled out, for starters. If you are able to afford it at all, I would consult a lawyer on possible ways to approach this, including starting an application in court to move things along (especially if she does not want to engage in negotiation in good faith).

                The important thing is to figure what you CAN live with, and whether what you can’t (or think you can’t) live with is worth the fight or not.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The order for spousal was issued in BC. Because my ex filed with the courts there, I was required to travel there to meet. Yes, there was an expectation that we would review (through the courts or idependently) and finalize length of spousal, and amount. She wants to review now on the basis of MY income ONLY. She is aware of bonuses I receive last year which put my income at about $50,000 more than when spousal and child support was originally determined. The bonuses were to assist with my relocation expenses. I have told her that if she wishes to use my 2011 income (without subtracting the relocation bonuses) then I will request an average of my last 3 years income be used. It's just a fight though with her. She sees $$$$ and is grabbing at it. I pay her $2600/month in child support and $2400/month in spousal support. She is not hard done by.

                  I tried offering an end date of December 2014 (an extra 4 months than what she originally requested) just to get things finalized - nope. Thats when she went to a lawyer last week and sent me an email notifying me:

                  1) if I didnt sign the passports for the children and get them back to her she was taking me to court
                  2) i had 30 days to provide her with my taxes in order to revisit child support, and spousal support
                  3) if I didnt get our BC house listed and if it didnt sell by january 2013 she was going to take me to court and order me to take on the financial burden of the home (it's worth less than what we owe)

                  I can't keep up with her and what her "going" issue is. I just want things finalized.

                  If she chooses to take me to court for any of our issues, would I be required by law to fly to BC to attend court?

                  Could she make me financially responsbile for our home if it doesn't sell by Jan/13?

                  If she demands child support be recalculated based on my 2011 income, and I choose to fight it and bring her to court, would she have to fly here to attend court?

                  How can I make an application to the court with regards to revisiting and finalizing spousal support with a term date, and to get equalization properly done?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    She seems to be trying to see how far she can push to get what she wants. Know the law, know your rights, know and meet your obligations, and you won’t be running afoul of any court.

                    She has the right to request your financials in order to properly determine support amounts, and you as the support payor must furnish such information when requested. Were you happy with the financial disclosure originally provided by her? Did it contain all necessary information for you to make an informed assessment of how to determine your support obligations? If not, then she is obligated to provide you with HER financials as well for you to do so when you request it; especially if material circumstances have changed (eg. she is now working and earning a wage). The thing is, it would seem that your support amounts are going to be tied to the issue of increased access costs on your end, etc., and you can’t really finalized one without sorting out the other.

                    Take some time aside, sit down, and think things through. Be clear and outline your position (ie. What you want, what you feel you are entitled to/is fair according to the law) for ALL issues that you are seeking to finalize (ie. Support, equalization, access etc.).

                    Based on your position for all outstanding issues, compile a list of disclosure or information that you are going to need from her. Outline your position and your rationale for each position to her, and request the disclosure you need from her.

                    If you believe you already have the information you need from her, or she refuses to provide disclosure, provide her with a global settlement offer on ALL outstanding issues. You want to negotiate and finalize ALL outstanding issues, not just go back and forth piece meal on whatever matter it is that comes up at the time. Offer her as close as possible to what you believe is fair, what a court would award you/her based on the law, entitlement, and precedents. If you provide a reasonable offer backed up by solid facts and evidence, that should give her an incentive to settle, counter-offer, or at least get the ball rolling on having proper discussion and negotiation of the issues by bringing her and her lawyer to the table.

                    If she still refuses to respond reasonably, then your only alternative left is court. But by that point you would already have done your homework, have your ducks in a row, and have a solid offer to settle behind you, which will come in handy if she loses her case and costs are ordered in your favour. You want to show the court (if you go there) that you have done your due diligence and done your best to be reasonable, cooperative and negotiate in good faith.

                    I strongly recommend that you seek legal counsel on this, especially since you will be dealing with cross-province access, custody and equalization issues. I don’t know many people on this forum who have experience or knowledge in that. Visit your local FLIC (Family Law Information Centre) and see if they can provide you with some advice or guidance. It’s beyond this forum to walk you through step-by-step the filing of an application specific to addressing all your outstanding matters.

                    Since the children reside in BC and you have outstanding access issues, likely the case will have to be dealt with in BC court. I assume that there should/would be teleconferencing options available for you to attend in that way if it comes to that. You should inquire with the BC court about that.

                    She can’t make you financially responsible for the house not selling due to reasons beyond your control (eg. market conditions). The matrimonial home was already sold and the equity split, right? Why is she in such a rush to sell this other home? Whatever the reason is, inform her that it is in her best interest to have equalization properly carried out and all other outstanding matters finalized so the disposition of this home can be determined ASAP as well as part of settling all matters.

                    Again, I strongly recommend that you seek legal counsel.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Again, thank you for your advice. You have been great help in organizing a plan and understanding this process.

                      I was not happy with her original financial disclosure - many expenses were assumed (i.e. rent, even though she was living at her parents, utilities, chid care, even though she wasn't working) yet there was not any income imputted for her. As mentioned before, my lawyer did NOTHING for me aside from pushing the paper along and collecting a pay cheque.

                      Yes, the matrimonial home was sold and the equity was split. She is eager to sell our other home because my employer (as part of my relocation) had agreed to pay for real estate costs and legal fees provided the house sold by January 2013. So her position is, that if it doesnt sell by then, I should be fully responsible for all those fees, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MovingOn123 View Post
                        Child Support was established when we both had our lawyers, and an order was made for spousal support as well. When spousal support was determined she did not have any income and was living at her parents house. Spousal support was set at $2400/month until a further order was made and/or a mutual agreement was made.
                        Child support is based entirely on your income (unless you have more or less 50-50 custody, which would be impossible in your current situatoin). No flexibility there.

                        Spousal support is going to be a big headache. A set amount until a further order or mutual agreement is made? She's never going to mutually agree unless you've got one of those miraculously reasonable ex-wives. So you do need to hasten up that further order to get yourself out of this trap. Frankly, I'm not sure why such a large amount would have been ordered if she lived with her parents and had few expenses. Bad luck there!

                        Originally posted by MovingOn123 View Post
                        We both lived in Edmonton, Alberta and when she left she moved the boys 7 hours away to BC. I later was required to transfer (with work) to Ontario. I foot all the costs to fly the children here, and pay for an additional ticket (my mother) to chaperone them. I have mentioned looking at reducing child support due to the additional costs to see them, but she says it won't happen because I was the one that made the decision to move so far. Is that accurate?
                        Depends how well you can argue your case. You could try to argue that since she moved first, she should be responsible for at least some of the visiting expenses by way of reduced child support. Can you prove anything along the lines of you wouldn't have been required to move to Ontario if your kids still lived in Alberta?

                        Originally posted by MovingOn123 View Post
                        I am working on the evidence of her working and/or owning the gym. I have prepared an email to her (not sent yet) requesting her financials. Is there any actual requirement for her to send them to me upon my request?
                        You betcha there is. Financial statements are only valid for 30 days or something crazy like that. So to establish a final agreement or to go to court, you need up to date financial statements from both sides. Send her yours, and request hers. Once the agreement is final, you'll only need to exchange tax return information annually for income purposes for CS, but until then, it's the full deal, income, assets, expenses and debts, kept up to date regularly.

                        Originally posted by MovingOn123 View Post
                        We have sold the matrimonial home and split the equity and I signed over the family car (at the time I had a company car). I am making all the credit card payments (approx $500/month); however have not sorted out how the reminaing balances will be paid (approx. $15,000). She is requesting all the RRSP's ($20,000), and my stock options ($15,000). We own a house in Cranbrook, BC (currently being rented) that we are going to sell, and a loan we are going to split. She took all the home contents (and I mean all! she left me with my clothes, and old bed, sofa and tv).
                        Sounds like equalization was not done very properly or fairly at all. Make this part of your agreement. Use the search function on here to make sure you understand how it works, but basically you take all the assets and debts at date of marriage, all the assets and debts at date of separation, find the difference and divide by two. The matrimonial home always gets divided in two no matter who owned it before the date of marriage, but this extra house of yours is just an asset and doesn't have to be divided equally if one of you owned it prior to the marriage. You'd only divide the increase in value over the two years of your marriage. And frankly, if she took the car and all the house contents and left you with the credit card debts, I would say you are definitely owed some equalization money, and certainly don't need to give her your RRSPs and stock options.

                        Originally posted by MovingOn123 View Post
                        She is requesting Spousal support to be paid until September 2014, then re-evaluated. That would mean 4 years of spousal support, on a 2 year marriage - at $2600/month. Nuts! After child support, spousal support, credit card payments, and my own minimal living expenses I would not be able to support myself unless it was for my new partner.
                        Well, in the interests of fairness, it was an 8 year relationship altogether, so here's where you can afford to let yourself be negotiated towards what she wants. Stick firm on fairer equalization and reduced travel expenses for access, and let her negotiate the spousal support she wants. She basically wants the spousal support so she can be a stay at home mom till the kids are both in school? Do you want that for your children, or do you think day care would be beneficial to them? If you do the spousal till that date for her, refuse to pay any daycare section 7 expenses, as daycare is unecessary for a stay at home mom. If she gets the spousal she wants, she'll think she's "won" and might flex a bit on the other items. And honestly, from things I read around here, court drags on forever and you could find yourself paying spousal till then anyways while you try to fight for the final order you need to stop paying it. But insist on the Septemer 2014 end date. No re-evaluation.

                        And don't forget to include the spousal support as her income (and take it off yours), plus whatever gym income you can attribute to her from her financial statement or your investigations, in the calculation for her proportional share of section 7 expenses.

                        Good luck!
                        Last edited by Rioe; 03-14-2012, 09:39 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I’m glad some of this was of some help to you. Navigating the family law system is a nightmare at the best of times. Rioe makes MANY good points and things to keep in mind while you are working out your position and offers to her. I would definitely keep those in mind. This forum is a great resource for research, advice, ideas, and learning from others’ experiences.

                          I agree with Rioe on the remaining house being an asset that might not even be “split” once PROPER equalization has been done. That your employer offered to RE costs and legal fees related to the house under certain terms has no bearing whatsoever, and she cannot hold you responsible for anything related to the offer.

                          Agree with her that you want to know what to do about the house and when ASAP. Inform her that in order to do that you will need to carry our proper equalization. In order to do so, you will require FULL financial disclosure from her (again, as Rioe pointed out, prior/previous disclosure are now “outdated”). Request that she provide such so that you can get moving on it with speed.

                          Comment

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