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  • #16
    Originally posted by Links17 View Post
    Look at the vast majority of sole custody cases, it is granted unless there is something exceptional.

    -When the mother can go somewhere to become a stay at home mom, it is granted. ( --> she becomes more available for the kids, yay)

    -When the relationship isn't an obvious passing fancy, it is granted.
    (mother has the right to remake her life and she has been the dominant caregiver)

    -When the mother can go somewhere to claim to be closer to family it is granted.
    (mother needs support which helps her with the kids and get on with her life)

    -When the mother can go somewhere to get a significantly better job it is granted.
    (mother needs to not live precariously and support her kids)

    -Language Issues too are brought up
    The best interests of the children are interlinked with their CP so saying best interests of the child is code for "best interests of the custodial parent". Access time isn't worth 2 **** in face of a move of the CP,
    I guess that is your perspective, however it isn't based off of factual reasoning, more likely emotional reasoning. While I have never tracked all the cases I have read on Canlii to determine if moves are granted more often than not, I can say there are bunch of cases where the moves are denied.

    If the standard of living of the children's lives would be greatly increased by a move, than the courts would likely allow the move as it would be in the children's best interests. That does happen. But what makes you believe that having joint, or even shared custody, would prevent the same thing from happening given similar circumstances? Having joint vs sole is no magic wand that can prevent the kids from moving if it is found that such move is in their best interests.

    My ex has sole. I have input, she has final say. To be honest, that is no different then others here that have joint with one parent having final say. Also, my ex is restricted by our custody agreement that she cannot move more than 100km's from her current residence without my consent. Should she try, I'd take her to court to prevent. And then she can argue why it is in the kids best interests and what concessions she is willing to give me should the move be permitted.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
      . But what makes you believe that having joint, or even shared custody, would prevent the same thing from happening given similar circumstances? Having joint vs sole is no magic wand that can prevent the kids from moving if it is found that such move is in their best interests.
      When you have shared custody the assumption is that you are close to equally present in the children's lives and are about as important, there are obviously nuances that judge will delve into but the differences will probably be slight.

      Then when you throw in the the fact that child is residing somewhere with family, extended family, schools, communities, and an available parent who can afford to give the child a good quality life what do you think a judge will decide?

      However compare that to an ACCESS parent and its basically the CP will say - either the kid comes with me or I go anyways and the judge has to decide what to do.... Will the judge put the children to live with a parent who they haven't lived with in years? I bet you if we compared shared custody moves vs sole custody moves the differences would be startling.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Links17 View Post
        When you have shared custody the assumption is that you are close to equally present in the children's lives and are about as important, there are obviously nuances that judge will delve into but the differences will probably be slight.

        Then when you throw in the the fact that child is residing somewhere with family, extended family, schools, communities, and an available parent who can afford to give the child a good quality life what do you think a judge will decide?

        However compare that to an ACCESS parent and its basically the CP will say - either the kid comes with me or I go anyways and the judge has to decide what to do.... Will the judge put the children to live with a parent who they haven't lived with in years? I bet you if we compared shared custody moves vs sole custody moves the differences would be startling.
        Maybe true, maybe not. I've read cases where a parent had joint custody with shared parenting and they still allowed the other parent to move with the kids. But the reality is in either case, whether or not such move is permitted will be based off of the reasoning put forth for and against the move.

        But the point here is, the OP is willing to give up joint custody to try and get shared custody. Don't confuse joint with shared, they aren't the same thing. One can have shared parenting but only sole custody. One can have every-other-weekend and have joint custody.

        Comment


        • #19
          On other option that don't come up much anymore.
          One can have sole custody, but zero access.

          In my case I argued for the following
          1. Joint Custody
          2. If the judge deemed joint custody would not work then an order for parallel parenting where I have final say over education and my ex has final say over medical. All others issues to be joint custody with the aid of a parenting coordinator.
          3. If the judge deems parallel parenting to not be viable, then an order for sole custody to me.

          I got number 2.

          We have equal shared parenting. The primary residence of the children is the county where we live. Neither parent has primary.

          Comment


          • #20
            Really, if your confident Mom will always put kids first - you probably have a point in that it's not a huge deal.

            If you're a control freak and need to be in charge, then it might be best to seek full custody for your own personal 'deal'.

            Given that both parents love the kid(s), and you know she'll do her best, then maybe you can leave it.
            This I agree with. We have joint custody with me having final decision making on minor/major decisions...so basically I have sole custody.

            Regardless of whatever the custody order is, I follow the same procedure. I inform the kid's dad of what's going on...tell him what I think should be done...ask for concensus, etc. I've been doing this from the beginning and have never deviated regardless of the custody order. He is the children's father and should have equal input into decision making.

            On the other hand, he ignores emails when he pleases...rarely informs me of anything...ignores clauses in our custody/access agreement when he feels like it...and does fun things like getting into a car accident with my kid on his access day(in which she crashes her head through the passenger window) and refusing to take her to the ER because (and I quote) "Canadian Emergency rooms take too long."

            Therefore, regardless of custody orders...an ahole is an ahole. You definitely don't want to give a control freak ahole sole custody if you can help it though. Otherwise, I would say its not as important.

            I would caution you however, that having full custody could potentially allow her to move half way around the world without any consideration for you.
            I disagree with this. Its not so...and access arrangements are extremely important here. You start screwing around with a parent's access schedule...especially in the event of shared access...and you're going to have issues.

            If you do step back from pursuing custody - some things you may want to get written in stone in that same Order. Like changing child(s) name(s) - allowed or not? Distance allowed to move away. Similar ideas...
            I agree with this. I think if you can cover some general bases in the order it helps. Just understand that aholes ignore orders and you have very little legal recourse with a lot of the things they'll violate aside from blocking access. My ex routinely ignores clauses of our order and there's not much I can do about it.

            So in summary, I would agree that custody becomes important if you have an ahole ex that doesn't respect your parental rights.

            Comment


            • #21
              I don't know much about the mobility stuff, but two things that make it easier to get the kids away from you is to have sole custody, and to have nearly all the access. Give your ex sole custody in exchange for more access and next thing you know, the children are enrolled in a school way across town and it's just about impossible for you to exercise your increased access.

              Why would either of you want to trade decision-making for access time? Both parents are equally important in both respects. Either you are an equal parent, and deserve both joint custody and equal shared time, or you aren't, and should have neither joint custody nor much access time. And you'd have to be a pretty sorry excuse for a parent to deserve that.

              Originally posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
              Therefore, regardless of custody orders...an ahole is an ahole. You definitely don't want to give a control freak ahole sole custody if you can help it though. Otherwise, I would say its not as important.

              So in summary, I would agree that custody becomes important if you have an ahole ex that doesn't respect your parental rights.
              That's the crux of it right there. If your ex was the kind of person you could trust to have sole custody and act in the best interests of the children and make sensible decisions, then your ex would be the kind of person who would agree to joint custody. Because your ex is trying to trade time with the kids for hogging the decision-making, I would submit that this is not the kind of person who should have sole custody.

              I can sort of understand why you are focusing on access time over decision-making, but I think your best bet is to figure out why your ex is willing to make that trade with you. What advantage does she perceive to having sole decision-making, even if it means she has less time with the children? That will give you some idea what giving up some control over the direction your children's lives will take will mean in the long run.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                I guess that is your perspective, however it isn't based off of factual reasoning, more likely emotional reasoning.
                I agree 100%. One only has to search my main thread postings to this site to see all the opposing case law regarding the moving of a child's habitual residential jurisdiction. Mobility cases are something that I research quite regularly and post about on this site.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                While I have never tracked all the cases I have read on Canlii to determine if moves are granted more often than not, I can say there are bunch of cases where the moves are denied.
                It is a rare case these days that a parent is allowed to move...

                A lot of cases reference this case law now when discussing mobility:

                Again, it is from Justice Mossip... Quite often quoted by lawyers at mobility hearings. I sit in a pile of these hearings... Anything to do with the mobility of children...

                Van Rassel v. Van Rassel, 2008 CanLII 37217 (ON SC)
                Date: 2008-07-23
                Docket: FS-06-04395-00
                Parallel citations: 61 RFL (6th) 343
                URL: CanLII - 2008 CanLII 37217 (ON SC)
                Citation: Van Rassel v. Van Rassel, 2008 CanLII 37217 (ON SC)

                [1] There is no other area of family law litigation in which the idea of “winner” and “loser” is less applicable than that of mobility cases. It is also true, that even with the very best parents, it is the area where “win-win” solutions can rarely, if ever, be fashioned. Parents involved in a mobility dispute often have to resort to the courts, because even with the best of intentions, and with both parties doing their best to put their child’s interest before their own, they cannot find a solution to the desire of one parent to move with the child, and the other parent vehemently resisting that move.

                ...

                [83] Accordingly, the application by the mother to re-locate Johnathan to Halifax is dismissed.
                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                If the standard of living of the children's lives would be greatly increased by a move, than the courts would likely allow the move as it would be in the children's best interests. That does happen.
                Very rare to see any case law that states this today. It was the case about 5 years ago. But, today, the courts are more apt to do what is demonstrated in the case law above...

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                But what makes you believe that having joint, or even shared custody, would prevent the same thing from happening given similar circumstances? Having joint vs sole is no magic wand that can prevent the kids from moving if it is found that such move is in their best interests.
                Sole custodial parents cannot automatically move a child's habitual residential location. This is very common knowledge which you pointed out earlier HammerDad. So being a sole custodial parent is NO MAGIC WAND.

                The key is that the parent opposing the move has to OPPOSE IT and IMMEDIATELY. Not 6 months after it happens. The application, even if not perfect, should be filed in the immediate and marked "urgent" if a child is being moved in contravention to the CLRA out of their habitual residential location and in contravention of 283.(1) or 282.(1) of the CCC.

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                My ex has sole. I have input, she has final say. To be honest, that is no different then others here that have joint with one parent having final say. Also, my ex is restricted by our custody agreement that she cannot move more than 100km's from her current residence without my consent.
                100K is a big radius. I generally recommend 15KM to preserve school districts etc... But, at least you have a radius defined. Just be careful if she moves 100K and then, in a years time, moves another 100K from the new location that is 100K away from the previous location... Following a case right now that is before the courts the parent pulled this stunt...

                Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
                Should she try, I'd take her to court to prevent. And then she can argue why it is in the kids best interests and what concessions she is willing to give me should the move be permitted.
                Exactly, the onus falls on the moving parent to demonstrate to the court and present the evidence that it is in the children's best interests. It is no easy task... See the case law that I provided. HammerDad is bang on correct here...

                Good Luck!
                Tayken

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
                  Hi, I have 4 kids, 13, 11, 10, and 9. Spending a fortune on litigation. going broke.
                  To answer the thread's topic: Is "custody" overblown?

                  In the matter of a 13 year old yes, custody is overblown. Why? Because a child of 13 can walk into their family practitioner of medicine, dentist and other health care professionals and have a very frank and candid conversation and successfully remove their parents from accessing their medical records. There is no "age" at which a child cannot do this and it is at the discretion of the medical professional to act on the request of their client.

                  So, a child of 13, who is only 1 year from being 14 and out of scope of the Criminal Code of Canada for "abduction" charges against either parent too.

                  So, is custody of a "13 year old child" really overblown... yes, because a mature and educated 13 year old can call Kid's Help Phone and basically get the information on how to bar both their parents from interfering with their medical needs.

                  11, 10 and 9... Not so important either as a doctor and the school will listen to what the children want/say. It is very hard for a parent to manipulate a "custodial decision" of any child who is over 9 generally unless they are engaged in HAP/PAS patterns of behaviour. This would have to be extreme and the other parent generally would be egging your car and insulting you on facebook. Generally there is more evidence of negative parental influence (NPI) than one can shake a stick at... In those cases of NPI it is often more difficult to choose what the best evidence is to present in the case of NPI.

                  Change a 10 or 11 year old child's school randomly and without good cause and they will protest and it won't be fun for either parent. Uprooting a child's friends and social setting at that age isn't advisable... Especially to "win" custody... The court won't find it funny.


                  Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
                  Thinking that I should give up on custody in favor of more access. I more or less trust mother to make decisions in the best interest of the children. Provided full custody will not impede me from access.

                  Thoughts ?
                  What a lot of people don't realize in the custody vs. access debate that as a parent the more time with the child you spend the more influence you have over the child. I would advise anyone who has the opportunity to get 50% access (equal residence) over "full custody/joint custody" to really consider that opportunity. Especially with children who are 13, 11, 10 and 9 years of age.

                  Basically, come to an agreement that the children's school can't change without both parent's consent and that their habitual residential location can't be change from a 15 KM radius from their current school and you are all set.

                  What you will find is that having 50% residency is more influential than anything "joint custody" could get you if you are a good parent. You will be hard pressed to find an "alienated" child who has joint residency (50% access - equal residency - shared custody) with both parents. If you are a good parent and present in your children's lives they will naturally come to you and seek your input on their "custodial" needs.

                  Time is more important to your children than "custody". Your children see your involvement in their lives every day and the more you are involved in their lives, the more they will realize you are truly a parent... Not what some agreement states. No court order can prevent your child from asking your opinion of what they should do in school, their medical needs etc...

                  Good Luck!
                  Tayken

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
                    Thanks HammerDad. That is good to know. My ex also did this, apparently, I'm told (specify someone other than me, in her will, if she were to pass).

                    I imagine it would be a lot less headache though, if one has joint custody, vs no custody. Original poster... there is no reason in this day and age (unless you have serious issues), that you should not have joint custody of your child.
                    I have a one time DV conviction. Situation was extenuation, but its their. 13 years of being a heavily invested dad, and I screw it up in an instant. Happened in front of the kids, so CAS now asking for supervised visits.

                    I don't know what to do! I can't see how she can parent those kids by herself. She is a few bricks short a load, but good luck proving that to a judge.

                    Do I go broke fighting for an unlikely outcome (joint custody) ? Do I self rep and risk messing up and getting no contact to my kids ?

                    Do I roll over, give her sole custody, and negotiate maximum access ?

                    I am not sleeping, eating, and I am driving everyone in my support system nuts. Sorry all.

                    I really appreciate this forum, but sometimes the effect is to add to my indecision. HELP !!!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
                      I have a one time DV conviction. Situation was extenuation, but its their. 13 years of being a heavily invested dad, and I screw it up in an instant. Happened in front of the kids, so CAS now asking for supervised visits. I don't know what to do!
                      If convicted of intimate partner abuse you need to do the following:

                      1. Seek mental health help in the immediate. I am talking a psychologist / psychiatrist - not a "social worker".

                      Start on a treatment therapy even if it was a "one time occurrence" as you stated. Someone reputable and I recommend CBT based treatment. You do this because it is in the BEST INTEREST of your children - not because you are admitting to "guilt" nor is it because you are "mentally ill".

                      This is what any self respecting person (in my opinion) would do. They would seek help from a qualified clinician, work with that clinician, listen to that clinician and then get them to provide a treatment overview and report. Someone REPUTABLE.

                      2. You take parental classes. All of them. Every single parental class that your local CAS has listed. Every single one.

                      Then you research more. You take them all. You get your certificates. Again, you do this to demonstrate that you are not crazy and that you will do anything, even take parental classes to be a parent. You demonstrate you are committed parent by doing this.

                      You can't remove the incident of intimate partner abuse but, you can demonstrate to the court you are humble, will seek help when needed (if if not needed) and will do everything to demonstrate to anyone and anybody you are a good parent. You be very humble and you accept that you need to do step #1 and #2 and do it without complaint.

                      I even recommend this to people who have been accused false allegations of "domestic violence". True "domestic abusers" don't seek help, they don't seek out medical assistance and they rarely if ever take parental courses generally. Those who engage in "intimate partner abuse" be it any gender or sexual orientation have a very similar "MO"... They are not to blame or it was "only a one time occurrence". They are generally not self reflective.

                      Hard to do anything if you have a reputable psychologist/psychiatrist who provides an expert report that states you have been to (over 10) sessions and they are of the medical opinion that you pose no threat to the children or the other parent for further incidents of abuse.

                      Good Luck!
                      Tayken

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mess View Post
                        If you have joint custody you don't have any more decision making power on these issues either. You certainly do not have any power over where the child lives, whether you have sole, joint, or no custody.

                        You don't go to the police, you go to a lawyer. If the child has been abducted you still have rights. A parent cannot unilaterally take a child away from a parent, even an NCP access parent.

                        Police will rarely get involved in any kind of family law issue. You need a lawyer (or self rep) to get the courts to make an order. Then the police act.

                        Doctors do not need parental approval to provide necessary care. It doesn't matter if you have custody. The babysitter can take a sick child to a hospital and get the same care.

                        According to Ontario family law, custody goes to the father.


                        Would love to hear one.

                        Mess, with much respect to all, Mess, you really sound like you know what your talking about.

                        Mess, do you then believe joint custody is overblown. I have no problem paying support, and i work. So how would I look after 4 kids during the week without a nanny or babysitter. I don't think that will fly in the judges eyes.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
                          Mess, do you then believe joint custody is overblown. I have no problem paying support, and i work. So how would I look after 4 kids during the week without a nanny or babysitter. I don't think that will fly in the judges eyes.
                          Your 13 year old is old enough to watch the younger children before and after school. If that isn't possible then you put the children in PLASP or a similar program. (https://www.plasp.com/)

                          How is the other parent going to do it? They a stay-at-home-parent. One thing you need to realize is that it is VERY important for the children to spend time with a working parent. They will learn from their time with you even if you have to work. They will learn that in today's modern society both parents independent of sexual orientation and gender really need to work. The days of the "stay at home parent" are over and will be rare and probably will never happen for them. You can easily argue that as a working parent the time the children spend with you is important as they learn equally about life as they do with the parent who is unable to / unwilling to or alleging they cannot work because they were a "stay at home parent" for so long.

                          It is becoming very hard these days for younger families to play the "stay at home parent" card... They are a rare case for anyone with children under the age of 10 these days and a dwindling population of parents.

                          It will only be a matter of 10-15 years when any claim to being a "stay at home parent" will be met with crossed eyes by a justice as the old-time judges will have all retired and the next generation of non-baby-boomer justices will be presiding who well, didn't have a "stay at home parent" but two parents who worked and a daycare that they went to.

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
                            I have a one time DV conviction. Situation was extenuation, but its their. 13 years of being a heavily invested dad, and I screw it up in an instant. Happened in front of the kids, so CAS now asking for supervised visits.

                            I don't know what to do! I can't see how she can parent those kids by herself. She is a few bricks short a load, but good luck proving that to a judge.
                            The first thing you do is stop talking about the "extenuating circumstances" surrounding your domestic violence conviction. That sounds like someone trying to minimize or avoid blame. You physically assaulted your children's mother, to the point that criminal charges were laid and upheld in court and the CAS will not let you visit your children without supervision. You now have to demonstrate to everyone around you that you have taken responsibility for your actions and have taken steps to ensure that you never do it again. Never mind "... but there were extenuating circumstances" or "...but she provoked me" or "... but it was just one instant". YOU made a horribly wrong decision, and now you have to try to make it right. Tayken has given a lot of good practical advice. The key word here is "humble".

                            Similarly, if you talk about your ex to other people the way you talk about her here ("a few bricks short of a load", etc), you're making a mistake. Like it or not, you have to show everyone that you're willing and able to co-parent with her, if you want any chance at shared custody. You're going to have to bend over backwards to be the most reasonable, courteous and diplomatic person in the world if you want a hope of convincing a judge that you should have shared parenting. You're going to have to spend a lot of time biting your tongue.

                            It sounds like you are really committed to your children and want to be there for them. You aren't taking the easy way out by just turning into a disappearing dad. That speaks well for you. It's going to be a lot of work, however your kids are worth it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                              It will only be a matter of 10-15 years when any claim to being a "stay at home parent" will be met with crossed eyes by a justice as the old-time judges will have all retired and the next generation of non-baby-boomer justices will be presiding who well, didn't have a "stay at home parent" but two parents who worked and a daycare that they went to.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken
                              Totally true. Things are changing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mess View Post
                                Totally true. Things are changing.
                                Change is slow though and taykes time.

                                Oingo Boingo - No One Lives Forever

                                Good Luck!
                                Tayken

                                Comment

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