Shoe ----->Other Foot

[dadtotheend]

So, long part of the story short:

We separated almost 4 years ago. I was paying uncharacterized support of $700/mth for 2 years until we settled in May 2008, at which time I obtained sole custody. The judge recommended that the support continue as my ex was still off work for medical reasons and needed the money. So we then characterized the support as $300/mth CS (based on her $18K income, two kids, based on the table) paid to me, but that I pay her $1,000 SS, which terminates forever in April, 2010. So the offset is that I continued to pay her $700/mth. The first review of CS is scheduled for May 2010 as per our court order.

She returned to work in mid 2009, I guesstimate that her line 150 will be between $35K and $40K, which includes the LTD insurance for first half of year when off work, T4 income for second half after return to work, and $12K taxable SS. That puts her CS obligation between $520 and $600/mth.

I finally brought this up to her the other day, and she said that she can't afford to pay the full table amount. Now I realize that this is a $1,220 to $1,300/mth swing for her but principally I can't and won't let her walk away from financially supporting her kids. Plus the agreement is and has been clear since the outset, so this is not a surprise. And she is about to move in with her new BF so "can't afford to pay" is not as compelling as if she was on her own.

My question is, is there any reason that I should be convinced to cut some slack here? I do make more money than her, but that's only relevant vis a vis section 7 expenses. I'm inclined to say its going to be table amount, as I don't want any opportunity/precedent to depart from that, which could lead to future litigation. We already pissed away $150K in legal fees b/w us.

Thoughts anyone?

[Mess]

Ask her flat out, if the situation were reversed, how much of a reduction she would be willing to give you, and how she comes up with the amount.

I doubt that will be convincing, but it will be a good conversation starter. And hopefully if nothing else it will get her to think about not just asking for money asking for money asking for money, but that there is some kind of principal here, and a method for deciding. What are they?

If you give her a reduction, then you are really just continuing spousal support. She knew it was temporary, if she hasn't worked out a budget ahead of time that's tough.

At a guess, I would bet she is carrying more credit card debt than she can handle. 9 times out of 10 that's what would screw someone up in a situation like this. But that's out of our hands.

The reason the tables were created, supposedly, was to remove the arguments about how much, so people could then stay out of court. Now everyone wants to go to court to argue how they can't afford the table amount.

There's no good reason to cut her slack, other than she will jump through any hoops she can to avoid paying. Offer her a one-year transition on the basis that she is an idiot and didn't plan ahead. The transition could be something like adding 25% of the increase every 3 months. Get post dated cheques and type her out a payment schedule that she enter into her calandar.

Edit To Add: Sleepy Sundy morning math, you were paying her $8,400 taxable plus she had an $18k income, and she was able to live on that just fine.

Now she has (guessing) around a $48k income (?) and would be paying $7,200 CS. She is ahead of where she was, well ahead.

[dadtotheend]

Offer her a one-year transition on the basis that she is an idiot and didn't plan ahead.

You said it

The transition could be something like adding 25% of the increase every 3 months. Get post dated cheques and type her out a payment schedule that she enter into her calandar.

That's great food for thought. That will pre-empt her hardship argument big time, it's a very reasonable accomodation, and it still moves to the table relatively quickly (the kids are only 7 and 5).

THANKS!

[dadtotheend]

Edit To Add: Sleepy Sundy morning math, you were paying her $8,400 taxable plus she had an $18k income, and she was able to live on that just fine.

Now she has (guessing) around a $48k income (?) and would be paying $7,200 CS. She is ahead of where she was, well ahead.

Another great point. The actual numbers are a little off - her previous income was $18K plus $12K taxable and back to work annual income will be around $40K but the rationale is sound.

Way to go, thanks. What I really want to do is to be able to sell her on the idea so that I don't look like an a*****e (either in her or her friends/family etc.'s eyes) for enforcing what the rules clearly state that the kids are entitled to.

She has already said that if don't accomodate her, then she won't be able to take the children as much, as it will be too costly. (Yeah right!!!!). I don't want her telling the kids that Mommy can't see them because Daddy stole all her money (something which has already been done in the past BTW).

[billiechic]

Sounds like a very solid option. She would be crazy not to accept and it is not too much for you to give up. I hope it works.

[wretchedotis]

You know what, Eff it, in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with being a stand-up guy and all - but I seriously doubt most Moms would offer a "payment plan" if the roles were reversed. Case in point, my sis and her man paid support for his boy, until he moved in with them at 14 years of age for two years. Dad didn't ask for CS. Then the boy moved back to Mom's, and Mom is all like "Where's my CS?" after 2 years payment free.

You are entitled to it legally. Get it. End of story.

If you feel bad about it, take the difference between what you think is reasonable, and then bank it in RESP or something.

[mom2kids]

I am a mom in receipt of child support, and I agree that you should go get the child support your children are entitled to. Like wretchedotis said, put it in an RESP if you don't think you need it to care for them right now. I've spent years trying to "play nice" and not rock the boat and it has only served to bite me in the rear end. Not only in the court system, but according to the ex I am still out to get him. The money is your children's and they are entitled to it in one form or another.

[dadtotheend]

Thanks for all your views. I do appreciate the insight.

My intention all along has been to bank the CS in an RESP as I make a decent living. It is very true that accomodating people does have a way of biting one in the ass, despite one's best intentions.

[Mess]

I've been fighting like mad for 2 1/2 years to get CS from my ex, she earns 5x my income. I fully agree you shouldn't have to offer a deal, but from where I'm sitting, if a deal can get CS started without having to talk to a lawyer, the deal pays for itself.

If she wants anything sweeter than the one I mentioned, then you're just as well off going legal.

[dadtotheend]

How in heaven's name has she gotten away without an interim order for CS when she is making 5x what you are????

Is she claiming that she has the kids more than 60% of the time? My understanding is that you two have a 50/50 arrangement.

How close are you to trial? Had a trial management conference yet? If not, push towards it. She's got no case.

[Mess]

Well, first it's the old "If I'd known as much about family law 2 1/2 years ago as I do now.."

Then there's, I couldn't afford an experienced lawyer so I got a juniour who was practicing all of 6 months. At least she was a divorce specialist but it's still been shakey.

Then my ex didn't provide any financial doc's for about 9 months (I'm waiting for this slip from HR, I've called them 3 times!). My lawyer just kept sending a letter to her lawyer every month.

Then months of back and forth letters where we actually were making offers, and her counter offers were, she paid anywhere from $0 to $200 per month CS, instead of the $900 per month (that's after offset) the she should.

Then we made a final offer, in the shape of a full separation agreement. She phones me, yes it's a very "attractive" offer, but she can't get a hold of her lawyer. Then for the next 6 months she can't get a hold of her lawyer. Then she responds that she wants to pretty much double everything in the deal, in her favour, and that makes it pretty much the same as that $200 she offered me 2 years ago. Plus she doesn't want to pay any retro, so her stalling gets off of paying CS for 2 years.

At this point I blow up at my lawyer and demand we file. So we file. I had wanted and expected to file 2 years ago, but my lawyer kept saying it was too soon, we should try working it through with letters instead blah blah.

Looking back at the meetings with my lawyer, I realize she was actually scared to push this because of the genders. If I was the woman she would have been in court 2 years earlier. It's not that she didn't agree with me, but that she had no confidence in the fight.

At the first case conference the judge looked at my ex's response, said if the genders were reversed we wouldn't be sitting here, and gave me CS plus spousal that I hadn't asked for as an interim.

So now she still hasn't signed the separation agreement, we are going by the interim order which is ok and custody has 2 1/2 years of status quo so I don't have any acute issues. The second case conference was supposed to be today at 11 am, it was put off until May because we thought we were on the edge of signing, but of course I haven't heard from her since last week now.

And I'm kicking myself that I didn't tell my lawyer last Thursday to not resched the case conference today, and that we could sign in the hallway. That would have been the smarter thing to do.

I don't even know what's up with the CS payments, she had given me post dates up until March 1st, and now no word. So she's got 3 weeks and then she's building up arrears again. At which point I will start up with the FRO I guess.

[dadtotheend]

So how much did the judge order in SS and CS at the case conference? And was it retroactive? Did you get costs?

[Mess]

No costs, I have now started being a lot firmer with my lawyer and we'll seek costs if it goes to another conference (and I have a new lawyer who communicates better and is less intimidated by the gender issues now.)

My last offer was 500 CS, the judge wrote 500 CS and 150 SS, but she stressed this wasn't any kind of recommendation that she would have given only this amount at trial. This was her mediated solution.

There were also issues here about my ex's financial disclosure, she left out $25k of assets so that she could show that much debt (her actual net would have been about $1k positive). So the judge was looking at $24k debt and said she might consider a hardship claim. We didn't spot the discrepancy until later, so if we go back my ex is going to have to explain all this to the judge. This was clearly intentional to show a fake debt level to claim undue hardship.

If we'd spotted the financial shenanigans beforehand I'm sure the judge would have gone full table and probably been furious.

We didn't get into retro at the CC, the judge wanted us to try to work it out.

[billiechic]

Now I know why your forum name is mess. That is F*^%ed up! Can you please tape the conversation when the udge lasys into her over the $24K?? I soo want to hear that!!

[Mess]

Hah! I'd love to, I'm not even sure it'll happen or if I'll be in the room.

I'm still trying to get the written notes from my lawyer on what the judge's verbal comments were when meeting with just the lawyers.

Entering another anxious waiting phase. She has 3 weeks to provide more CS cheques, or else sign the offer we gave them. Considering her history of doing nothing for 6 months, I don't know what to expect.

March 1st, it also swung over to my turn to pay the daycare bill for the next 4 months. So that's about $550 a month.