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  • #16
    Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
    What I said was Tayken saying because everyone did it for years and turned out fine is a lame argument without merit. Do you think that the courts should make rulings based on that? Guess the tender years doctrine shouldn't have been overturned? People used it for years.
    Thanks for clarifying. When everyone does something for years and it turns out fine, this is called empirical evidence, not "a lame argument."

    Comment


    • #17
      Apologies if it comes across as a breastfeeding issue, I don't see it that way at all, and agree it is a control issue.

      I agree it would be difficult as a mom to hand over the baby for exchanges, it would be equally difficult for dad on a number of different levels. Dad is and should be treated equal, yet he isn't because he doesn't have breasts and is being told this is the ONLY way the baby can be fed - which isn't true, but he is told what he can and can't do because he doesn't.

      It is equally difficult for dad to be away from the child, to be told that the baby bonding with him is less important, not just feeding the child, but to be completely involved.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mess View Post
        Thanks for clarifying. When everyone does something for years and it turns out fine, this is called empirical evidence, not "a lame argument."
        Awesome.

        No it isn't empirical evidence. It is just Tayken's opinion. And "turns out fine" is relative, don't you think?

        Empirical evidence requires neutral observers making clinical observations and analyzing observed data, not some over generalized statement of "everybody did it therefore it is okay".

        I don't think formula fed posters on an anonymous web forum qualify (myself included) to make non biased judgment of "empirical evidence".

        Comment


        • #19
          Empirical evidence includes data aquired by observation, and meta data from decades of clinical reports. There is no evidence that bottle fed babies are malnourished or grow up with any deficiencies or health issues.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mess View Post
            Empirical evidence includes data aquired by observation, and meta data from decades of clinical reports. There is no evidence that bottle fed babies are malnourished or grow up with any deficiencies or health issues.
            Oh for Pete's sake. So I guess you think Tayken's quickly posted opinion qualifies as empirical evidence under the definition you have posted above?

            The bottom line is Tayken said

            In fact, I suspect that formula and cows milk was the liquid of choice that many of the adult posters were fed as a child themselves. The recent and modern lactivist have a poor argument in my opinion as generations of non-breastfed children exist in North America (Canada) and have grown up to be successful and productive adults.
            He started in with lactivist. I am of the opinion that this is not about breastfeeding at all.

            My only statement was that "everyone else did it" is a lame argument regardless of the scenario it is applied to. That's it.

            You want science. You think breastmilk is not best?? Tayken always wants me to back up my information. Here you go.

            Breastfeeding and Maternal and Infant Health Outcomes in Developed Countries - NCBI Bookshelf

            Do you want me to summarize the information for you?

            We screened over 9,000 abstracts. Forty-three primary studies on infant health outcomes, 43 primary studies on maternal health outcomes, and 29 systematic reviews or meta-analyses that covered approximately 400 individual studies were included in this review. We found that a history of breastfeeding was associated with a reduction in the risk of acute otitis media, non-specific gastroenteritis, severe lower respiratory tract infections, atopic dermatitis, asthma (young children), obesity, type 1 and 2 diabetes, childhood leukemia, sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), and necrotizing enterocolitis. There was no relationship between breastfeeding in term of infants and cognitive performance.
            So yes, there are health implications.

            Here is another summary for the Surgeon General of the US.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...ort=objectonly

            No, there is no effect on "success and productivity" in adults as presented by Tayken. He is saying that lactivists have a "poor argument" and I am saying he is living in a glass house.

            But does that mean the Dad in the article shouldn't see his baby? NO. Which is what I was trying to say when Tayken posted about it in the first place.

            To me, this is not about breastfeeding at all and hopefully the courts and judges will be able to make sound, neutral judgments based on their experience and education. I am sure that Tayken saying over and over on this board "I would recommend that......" has no bearing on any of it at all.

            I'm done.
            Last edited by SadAndTired; 07-20-2013, 03:36 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Sure, breastfeeding is best, but that doesn't mean the alternatives are crap. It shouldn't trump absolutely everything. The father's time with the child is just as important. And since the family is separated, his time with the child will include feedings.

              The mother says the baby won't take a bottle? Not from her I bet, with the preferred alternative right there. But I'm sure he would from the father, if the father is patient, because the baby is hungry and the breasts are unavailable.

              The mother says she doesn't produce enough breastmilk to pump extra. Guess what! The baby can get formula the first weekend with dad, and she can pump while the baby is absent and freeze it for the next dad weekend. One single weekend of formula is irrelevant to the baby's health.

              The doctor said exclusively breastfeed. Was there a health reason given? Or did the doctor simply not know that the father had weekend custody? The father could consult a doctor or nurse for guidance on how to feed the baby during his weekend.

              The mother said she likes the bonding? A weekend away now and then isn't going to mess that up, and it would be a good start to the father's bonding.

              And lastly, the mother's determination to go to jail if necessary, rather than hand the child to the father says so much. During that time, guess what, someone else would be bottle feeding her child! It's not about breastfeeding at all, it's about finding every excuse possible not to let the father have the child.

              Lastly, the article probably only got the go-ahead because breastfeeding is a hot topic, and it gave them an excuse to display a half-naked woman. Hasn't this woman ever heard of nursing tops?

              Comment


              • #22
                Oh for pity's sake. The child is 4 months old. Her doctor recommends breast-feeding (and presumably staying with mom) for another 2 months. Leave the mother and child alone. It's a wonder she has anough breast milk with all this stress.

                Besides sexual reasons, God gave us women tits to nurse our babies with.

                I personally didn't nurse, as we adopted our kids, but I would have otherwise.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                  Oh for Pete's sake. So I guess you think Tayken's quickly posted opinion qualifies as empirical evidence under the definition you have posted above?

                  The bottom line is Tayken said....
                  Yes, it's always all about what Tayken said.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I personally don't give a d__m about what Tayken said, and haven't read any of his replies to my posts since he made his "comeback."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mess View Post
                      Yes, it's always all about what Tayken said.
                      ^ If I had posted this, likely I would be warned for creating unnecessary conflict and baiting others.

                      The bottom line is I posted to Tayken, you replied. Since I am on his ignore list, it would not have gone any farther without your post. It is a shame that I cannot put a moderator on ignore. I tried.

                      Let it go Mess. I am not sure exactly what you were trying to prove but let it go, okay?
                      Last edited by SadAndTired; 07-20-2013, 07:45 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by caranna View Post
                        Oh for pity's sake. The child is 4 months old. Her doctor recommends breast-feeding (and presumably staying with mom) for another 2 months. Leave the mother and child alone. It's a wonder she has anough breast milk with all this stress.

                        Besides sexual reasons, God gave us women tits to nurse our babies with.

                        I personally didn't nurse, as we adopted our kids, but I would have otherwise.
                        The father has the right to parent his child. He wants to be involved in his childrens lives and this "mother' turned it into a court battle. Why should he not be allowed to parent both his kids? The only one causing the stress to her is herself. All she has to do is follow the agreeded upon parenting time for the dad but she would rather go to jail then do that. Hmm wonder if she would change her tune if it actually did come to that?

                        I am sure that there are other doctors who will say that formula is okay for children also.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Not to mention, the mother could continue to use the `baby won`t take the bottle' excuse to drag out preventing dad from being allowed to be an equal parent. And then of course, she'd use a 'status quo' argument.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                            Not to mention, the mother could continue to use the `baby won`t take the bottle' excuse to drag out preventing dad from being allowed to be an equal parent. And then of course, she'd use a 'status quo' argument.
                            k, #1 this news article is about control, not bf;

                            #2, did you bf? cause as a granola, bf parent, I can assure you.. bf is not easy. It don't come natural, and don't believe the shit they tell you in hospitals. It is one of the most difficult things I've done, and to then have to be asked to switch between bf and formula when I struggled from the get-go, worried I couldn't feed enough; and finally thinking we had struck gold = we had production; we had feeding = would have been near to impossible.

                            #3, if kidlet had been born in a 2 household family, we would have worked not only on my supply, but also on my pumping skills -- which would be ENTIRELY different than production for the newborn at my breast.

                            #4 - this news article is about control, not bf.
                            Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Agreed, it's about control. Mom is using breastfeeding as a means to control and prevent dad from being an equal parent. Later, it will be that baby won't take a bottle, then later, it eill be that baby doesn't want to go with dad, because dad wasn't around so baby isn't comfortable with him.

                              It's not a breastfeeding issue at all, there are other options.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Oh...and as for whether or not I breastfed, I did both. I breastfed when it was my turn to feed the baby, Dad bottle fed formula when it was his turn. Breastfeeding was easily one if the most difficult things I have ever done, I did not pump for fear of producing even more milk. Feeding the baby was one of the things Dad enjoyed most, and I enjoyed watching them. It was a wonderful experience, despite the horrible difficulties in doing it.

                                Comment

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