Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Right of first refusal in custody agreement

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    FRoR works with parents not in conflict but, they usually don't need an agreement as they don't interfere with each others lives and are mature about it. You can't force someone to be mature.

    Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

    The greater the parental conflict the more likely that an increase of communication and expected cooperation will only intensify the conflict. As such, while interventions for the low to moderate conflicted separated parents can and should be aimed at facilitating communication and cooperation, with the high conflict separated parents interventions are best aimed at facilitating their disengagement. For the high conflict separated parents, the adage, tall fences make good neighbors should guide intervention.
    Daycare in a high conflict situation is often used as a "tall fence" by judges and assessors.

    The goal with high conflict separated parents is to structure a parenting plan that reduces the necessity for parental communication, contact and problem solving. To affect this, the parenting plan tends to be highly structured and somewhat rigid. Parents are not to rely upon each other. Each will have their own supports available to minimize either having to depend on the other understanding that all points of contact provide risk for re-engagement in conflict – poison to the children.
    Daycare is a tool that minimizes either parent to have to "depend on the other". It reduces the engagement in conflict.

    Good Luck!
    Tayken
    Last edited by Tayken; 01-10-2017, 09:18 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      two things.

      1. To blinkandImgone, there are daycare that will allow 2 weeks advance notice of schedule. I agree that ROFR doesn't necessarily refer to daycare. I have seen cases where judge orders custodial parent to allow access parent to have right of first refusal if custodial parent needs more than X hours of care per week.

      2. To Tayken, what about in the case where daycare is home licensed care, but the care giver is best-friends with mom/custodial parent and is against you and has made unfounded CAS referrals about you anonymously ? And you have made referrals back at her? What if the daycare provider doesn't want to see you but has no choice as they would be in contempt of court if they denied you access? What if the custodial parent shows up at the daycare when it's your time to pickup your kid form daycare? Just to be there and stare down you like a hawk with the daycare in the sense, we're the boss, we're in control, look at your obeying us like a slave. ha ha ha.

      In these cases I personally find that it adds to the conflict and is just another part of a custodial parent's campaign to push all of the access parents buttons all at the same time - to find out that the reaction she get's it's the opposite of what she expected

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by trinton View Post
        2. To Tayken, what about in the case where daycare is home licensed care, but the care giver is best-friends with mom/custodial parent and is against you and has made unfounded CAS referrals about you anonymously?
        My recommendation to anyone in this situation would be:

        1. Research three (3) properly licensed day care facilities in the area.
        2. Have your lawyer compose a letter recommending the three (3) and for the other party to select one (1) of them.
        3. Failing a response a motion be brought to change the daycare to a licensed one and provide the judge with the letter of the three recommendations and state there was no response (or provide the negative one).

        A judge is compelled to order a properly licensed daycare. They will not take the risk of non-licensed care. I have never come across any case law where an unlicensed daycare provider is ordered.

        I have even seen a number of matters made on consent to use an unlicensed day care provider in the Peel Regional Court House be thrown back to the parents to find a properly licensed one by the Judge.

        A judge does not want their signature on an order for a child care provider that is non-licensed generally.

        If you are indeed facing this situation (unlicensed daycare provider) it should be a top priority to have change. But, that would mean you acknowledge the need for daycare and consent to the child attending by simply bringing this motion.

        Originally posted by trinton View Post
        And you have made referrals back at her?
        I would recommend you end the CAS campaign and stop wasting public resources. The CAS file will be opened up and brought to trial. Every stupid thing you and the provider have said to the CAS will be out in the open.

        Originally posted by trinton View Post
        What if the daycare provider doesn't want to see you but has no choice as they would be in contempt of court if they denied you access?
        How could the daycare provider be in contempt of an order that they are not a party to? The only people who can be in contempt of an order are the NAMED PARTIES TO THAT CASE. The daycare worker can ignore whatever a judge orders, they are not bound to the order as a non-party.

        Again, my advice above stands.

        Originally posted by trinton View Post
        What if the custodial parent shows up at the daycare when it's your time to pickup your kid form daycare?
        You pick up the child, be polite and move on. If the matter gets worse then you bring a non-involved non-relative third party to observe the situation and to write an affidavit and testify.

        Originally posted by trinton View Post
        Just to be there and stare down you like a hawk with the daycare in the sense, we're the boss, we're in control, look at your obeying us like a slave. ha ha ha.
        Again, bring a independent non-involved non-relative third party. Your lawyer probably has a student who could go with you or can recommend a third party professional like a private investigator. Someone who can write an affidavit and will show up to testify as to the conduct in court.

        Good Luck!
        Tayken

        Comment


        • #34
          Taken: I think the poster said it was licensed home daycare? So would it not. E hard to change unless you can prove the daycare provider is biased against you?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
            Taken: I think the poster said it was licensed home daycare? So would it not. E hard to change unless you can prove the daycare provider is biased against you?
            If that is the case then contact the licensing agency and have a "home visitor" from the agency meet you to observe the contact. They do this regularly in these situations and will do this without alerting the licensed home care provider. If the contact is inappropriate and against the policies of the licensing agency the appropriate measures will be taken. 9 times out of 10 they will remove the license.

            I have assisted in a few of these nightmares. Agencies are generally really easy to work with. Best that your lawyer contact them directly by letter to make the request of the observation. They then come at the pickup time and observe the contact.

            Generally, when the licensed home daycare figures out that the licensing agency is observing their conduct it changes.

            Good Luck!
            Tayken

            Comment


            • #36
              Blarg doubled posted.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by trinton View Post
                Its simple. You get up early and have everything ready before the kid gets up. It's called not being lazy and punishing the other parent for your own laziness. Get your lazy ass out of bed half an hour earlier. Ask the other parent to confirm their schedule one or two weeks before.

                We may not have the greatest child care program in Canada - nor do we have the greatest family legal system - but that is no excuse to use daycare to feed your own selfish needs and to use daycare to control and sanction the other parents time with their child.

                There are plenty of daycare providers where you only put your child for 2-3 days a week. Not everyone needs day care 5 days a week. There are other care providers as opposed to subsidiary. Keep in mind these subsidiary daycare things are designed to make money and always cause problems for separating parents and children in Canada.

                Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
                Yep...and once the 'lazy ass' (!) is out of bed, the OP calls to say he is sick or can't make it or late or whatever and you will be the one stuck with the problem.Perfect.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ele110 View Post
                  Yep...and once the 'lazy ass' (!) is out of bed, the OP calls to say he is sick or can't make it or late or whatever and you will be the one stuck with the problem.Perfect.
                  how often does that happen? is it a consistent thing? do you have evidence of it? things can happen from time to time. that's the beauty of life. He could get hit by a bus, end up in the emergency room and not be available to pickup the child instead of daycare. you can't control that. no one can. it should be no reason to put the child in daycare every damn day of the week. shit happens from time to time. get over it ?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                    If that is the case then contact the licensing agency and have a "home visitor" from the agency meet you to observe the contact. They do this regularly in these situations and will do this without alerting the licensed home care provider. If the contact is inappropriate and against the policies of the licensing agency the appropriate measures will be taken. 9 times out of 10 they will remove the license.

                    I have assisted in a few of these nightmares. Agencies are generally really easy to work with. Best that your lawyer contact them directly by letter to make the request of the observation. They then come at the pickup time and observe the contact.

                    Generally, when the licensed home daycare figures out that the licensing agency is observing their conduct it changes.

                    Good Luck!
                    Tayken
                    She won't even talk to me. There has been times where she wasn't home with the child and the child was left with an unlicensed person. Mom has confirmed that in writing to me.

                    The babysitter is a single mom herself and well aware of the games, she will change up her act and put on a show. If I do request that and the investigation comes out in her favour, then that is going to likely hurt my case against the daycare provider. She is licensed.

                    To your contempt point, if there is an court order access for a father, and a babysitter interferes with that order, are they still not in contempt of the order? I understand they are not a party of the order but The child is in their care and they are not making the child available for the parent who has court ordered access. They are interfering with the court order. They obviously have a copy of the court order if they know the parents are seperated. I think that would be a damn good reason for a motion to remove them as a daycare provider.

                    An interim motion for daycare isn't going to help me. It is a trial thing. The daycare is subsidized. Child can only be away 30 days a year between the two parents. Anything passed that I have to pay. Which I don't agree with. Meaning, if I got shared custody, I would have to pay for daycare everyday the child is with me instead of daycare, which is one of many reasons why I think we have flawed inflexible systems in Canada that are frustrating to the citizens. I guess that's why we have schools and YMCA offering daycare these days. They are flexible and you only pay for the days you use.

                    I really like your advice of looking up a list of daycare providers that would be better suited if the court is not prepared to completely remove daycare. Though It is a fact that child care is not needed. The only argument they can make is that mom will need daycare in summer when child is with her.

                    Also mom has previously asked me to look after child when sick, other times I have asked I was ignored. She unilaterally decided when I get to see her and when not. I think ROFR will always ensure I get the time when mom is not available.

                    This is why I am very against sole custody. The sole custodial parent just makes whatever decision she damn pleases, and creates unilateral S7 costs without discussing the other parent's wishes. It's a controlling trap. A power imbalance. Would I have ever agreed to daycare if I had joint custody? not a chance. Will I agree to keeping the same daycare in my motion to change? Not a chance.
                    Last edited by trinton; 01-11-2017, 12:26 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by trinton View Post
                      I really like your advice of looking up a list of daycare providers that would be better suited if the court is not prepared to completely remove daycare. Though It is a fact that child care is not needed. The only argument they can make is that mom will need daycare in summer when child is with her.
                      There are lots of week-about summer camps that the child can attend. Generally that is the court's answer for child care in the summer months. Finding child care in the summer is easy. Lots of all-day programs the child can attend that are fun, educational and much better than sitting and watching TV at some person's house.

                      FYI: Summer camp these days is not "sleep-over camp in the forest". The city runs piles of them. The word "camp" doesn't mean "in the forest" anymore.

                      Good Luck!
                      Tayken

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                        The word "camp" doesn't mean "in the forest" anymore.
                        I hear you.

                        Thanks for the advice re: summer camp as opposed to staying home and watching TV at someone's house.

                        She will just say that she can't afford it and wants to keep her subsidized government funded infamous daycare.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by trinton View Post
                          I hear you.

                          Thanks for the advice re: summer camp as opposed to staying home and watching TV at someone's house.

                          She will just say that she can't afford it and wants to keep her subsidized government funded infamous daycare.


                          Do you have extended time during the summer months? Why does she dictate what you do on your time? If you have the kids and don't require he subsidized daycare how can she force you to use it? If she loses it because you don't utilize it how does the effect you? If she has to get regular day care that will cause your cost to go up correct?


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                            Do you have extended time during the summer months? Why does she dictate what you do on your time? If you have the kids and don't require he subsidized daycare how can she force you to use it? If she loses it because you don't utilize it how does the effect you? If she has to get regular day care that will cause your cost to go up correct?


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                            I don't have any summer schedule as per our original agreement. I have gotten some extra time during the summer on interim in my current proceeding.

                            Before I can answer that question you need to understand how subsidized daycare works, in case you already don't. I think you probably do but I will clarify just in case. The child can only be away 30 days a year. 10 of those are for statutory holidays leaving each parent with 10 days the child can be away from daycare every year. Including summer and Christmas holidays, and March break for that matter.

                            For any additional day that the child is absent, the parent's have to pay. She forces me to use it by not agreeing to change daycares, or even have that discussion. First I learned about daycare was when I was asked to pay when she took some time off daycare. I had no idea what she was talking about and simply stated daycare was not needed. Turned out she wanted me to pay for the time she took the child out of daycare. I don't need daycare when the child is with me, or when with her really. My work schedule allows me to provide all before and after school care.

                            The difficulty is, after the 10 days are used up, i.e., the christmas holiday that falls on new years, march break, etc. then there is no days left for Christmas or christmas holidays that fall in December. For everyday the child is away, I have to pay. If I get the child for 2 weeks in July and 2 week in August, then I have to pay the babysitter for 20 days. Of course, this is not in a court agreement and something she bullies me into with the threat that if I don't pay, I don't get our child.

                            If we get rid of the subsidized daycare and she wants to get a regular non subsidized daycare, then I would still argue that daycare is not needed and the cost to our family is unnecessary. That is money we can put towards the child's future education. I may consider part time daycare 2 or 3 times a week when the child is with her. But this is where my love for ROFR comes in. If she has to work and can't look after the child needing daycare, I can look after the child instead of creating costs to our family.

                            Hope that clears things up. Let me know.
                            Last edited by trinton; 01-13-2017, 04:05 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Mom can't force you to use subsidized daycare. You are choosing to give into her demands. If she uses it for work then it becomes a shared expense. Most daycares have a min number of days oh have to pay for. Your ROFR clause won't work on this case. She has a right to use daycare while she works.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                                Mom can't force you to use subsidized daycare. You are choosing to give into her demands. If she uses it for work then it becomes a shared expense. Most daycares have a min number of days oh have to pay for. Your ROFR clause won't work on this case. She has a right to use daycare while she works.


                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                                Thanks for your input. That's where it is getting messy. She is supposedly working during those hours, but wants me to pay the entire expense. She doesn't want to share it. I have found local daycare that will allow as little as 2 days a week - and that's all you pay for - you will always pay for the 2 days regardless of using them or not. Also, these daycares, will allow reduced rate if it is only for before or after school.

                                Can you tell me why you feel that ROFR won't work in this case? If she requires daycare, because she is not available, is that not time she should be offering me? (if there was a ROFR clause). Our current order allows for more time to be agreed upon - so I keep asking for more time when she is working, and sometimes when she's not. I keep documenting all the unreasonable "no's".

                                I know she has a right to use daycare during her access time, the same as I do. But I am arguing that this is time that the child and I could enjoy together. This would give me more time with the child without taking any time away from mom.

                                Now another thing with subsidized daycare is that the child has to be there a minimum of hours, I think it is 5 hours a day in the summer. I think that's a long time for child in daycare. especially in summer.

                                I fear that without a ROFR, she will always choose daycare over time with dad. ROFR will ensure the time is offered to me before daycare.

                                Comment

                                Our Divorce Forums
                                Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                                Working...
                                X