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  • #46
    Originally posted by Links17 View Post
    I make a special exception for family law stuff because I think it is broken, corrupt and bias. However, in other cases yes I think unless there are exceptional circumstances everybody should follow the laws as its what makes a civil society.
    Yep. Follow all of the laws, except the ones that inconvenience you personally. Thanks for proving my point.

    Comment


    • #47
      listen carefully. Links is trying to inform you that the court order only seems to punish the EOW parent. The custodial parent can alienate, bad mouth , refuse access. This parent can disobey a court order yet some posters are acting like this dosn,t happen and the child must be forced back to CP regardless of their feelings or welfare all in the name of principle. Blaming the Eow of setting a bad example.

      Remember a court order is supposed to go both ways. I believe this tread started with a father and son going through the ringer.

      Comment


      • #48
        Damn. I just reread the starting thread and their was no going through the ringer issue. I lost focus of the argument. The father has 50/50 shared. I wish I could have that.

        Saying this I agree the child should be persuaded to spend equall time with the mom as is the correct thing to do. Don't know what I would do though.

        When you have been put through the ringer and had family law screw you and your kids and seen it happen to so many we can loose focus.
        I apologize Arabian, sometimes I still see red.

        And looks like links has been through the ringer and broke it, so good for him. The more parents that will stand up to the lazy courts and cowardly tactics are the true heroes who will evoke change for equality . I think I did my part but I,m still mad bout how hard I had to fight just to be a dad.

        Comment


        • #49
          I see this has started a debate but an important one. This may help some other parents at some point..

          Originally posted by Franklin View Post
          Damn. I just reread the starting thread and their was no going through the ringer issue. I lost focus of the argument. The father has 50/50 shared. I wish I could have that.
          Just to be clear I am still fighting for 50/50. The court order I mentioned does not give me 50/50 access. We have been through the ringer to one degree or another, including the bias that many males get in court, having a (female) OCL agent decide to work for the ex in effect to the point of twisting my words around in court etc. For example I went to court on my own, to have the judge allow my son to go to high school in grade 8. That's what he wanted. The OCL agent sided with the mom and basically recommended it may be better he stay and do grade 8 at his public school. (that was the option) The judge thankfully ruled otherwise and said my son will be able to attend school with 90% of his friends at junior high. You can see here that the OCL agent was not representing her client properly. Lots of other crap behavior I can add but you can see what I've been dealing with and hopefully see I'm not some nut job dad but do care about my son's best interest. I was scolded by the judge for trying to rep myself and that it was a dis-service to my son. So I later spent thousands on a lawyer in my fight for 50/50 with little to none results with no better access than before.

          I obviously can't go through everything here but ya it has not been a picnic and the ex hates me. She is the classic crazy ex wife ok?

          I'm sure there are people on this forum that know what that means. I'll give you one example: I was sleeping in a separate room at one point while we were still together either because I did not trust her, the situation was too tense or both. I had to lock the door. (She was verbally and physically abusive) (It was so bad that I would get a stomach ache knowing that a long weekend was coming up! that meant a whole extra 24 hrs I had to spend with her in the house! lol) Anyway, at some point during the night she took a sledge hammer from the garage and smashed the door and door knob to get through! Major issues ok? But I hope readers now understand one of the reasons why I need to be involved at least 50/50 min to make sure my son is not being subjected to any craziness in his life and that he has a balanced parenting situation.

          Yes the proper method is to make changes through the courts but realize that the outcomes are not optimal and the judge will warn you of this. Justice is a blunt sword remember? It could take thousands of dollars ( if represented) and many months (6 or more for trial) waiting time and the dad can still get the shaft in the end. But I agree we have no choice but to try if we feel it's important.

          But now my boy is 14 years old. Hallelujah! The sun is coming out.

          Comment


          • #50
            Sorry long response..

            Originally posted by Straittohell View Post
            You say you came on here looking for advice, but what you really wanted was for people to hear your side of the story, and sympathetically cluck about you making the right call. Well, guess what, most of the posters with common sense didn't agree with you, and gave you some pretty measured advice about how to manage the situation. You can either ignore that advice and keep digging yourself into a hole, or actually check your ego at the door and listen to the more level-headed folks that are trying to help you instead of egging you on.
            First I respect all those who come on here and respond to my post. whether I like or not like, agree or not agree with the comments. Respect but no need for niceties, and I'll let you know what I think if it seems way off base to me. I'm grateful for the advice. I did not come on here to "tell my story" I actually kept the original post as small as possible. Yes at the end of the day I can ignore or take the advise. That's what we do as parents. Yes, I was surprised that many are advising against my line of action but happy that some are in agreement. So not just advise but some consensus is always nice in terms of having a "reality check" Based on the responses I don't think I'm crazy here. Not enough consensus saying otherwise. I can understand also that if you are in a good place (for you) then of course you don't want to even entertain the thought of going against an order. I hope it's about your child's best interest of course and not just avoiding further conflict. Yes conflict is not good for the child but sometimes unavoidable to get to a better place for that child. (within reason)

            Originally posted by arabian View Post
            Hey Harold - check your post, specifically "...But ya if your mom takes away your phone because you dare want to see you dad and only promise to give it back if you say no to your dad 5 times...." You know what's in the order. Why then would your son have to say no to you 5 times? Sounds to me like you are the problem here.
            This could involve things like a sport related activity he wants to attend or is attending and now one of the days is on a day where she gets him overnight. She won't consent and the order stipulates that she pays for the activities out of the money I send her. So interestingly enough she has not paid for any activities. Why? Well because she has not consented of course! lol. So that's part of it and part of it is ongoing "Parental Alienation" which is very nasty stuff. So I am the problem? ok if you say so.

            Originally posted by arabian View Post
            ^so you think it's a good thing to intentionally dishonour a court order? All you're doing is setting a bad example and showing your son that you think you are above the law and court orders are not to be taken seriously.

            I believe people who take this attitude are aptly referred to as "high conflict" and "vexatious." Our jails are full of people who thumb their nose at laws.
            I think you and others like HammerDad are over simplifying (why? not sure) the issue. Here's what happened since the cops came over. - Nothing. He has stayed over an extra day the next week and they have not come over again. If I was breaking the law as you put it, you can bet my ex and her lawyer would be all over that. What I found out is that it's "not enforceable" Maybe that will change, but my lawyer suggested I continue to support my son's decision and see what happens. He said to save my money rather than go for a motion to change. I don't encourage breaking the "Law" but do encourage independent thinking and standing up for one's rights. Yes a 14 year old has rights. I would be sad but not force him to be with me more than he wanted if the situation was reversed, now at his age. Blindly following court orders does not make sense and if you advocate that then I'm not really interested in any more of your opinions. Fantasy land or naive comments not helpful.

            Originally posted by Stillbreathing View Post
            Really and truly , how do you think the police are going to "enforce " a visitation order with an older child? If they so much as lay a finger on them they can be charged with assault.
            This is useful information. Thank you!

            BTW My understanding from a lawyer is that a 14 yr old can see another parent if he wishes. (Regardless of any order) That doesn't mean there are not legal ramifications I may need to deal with which is why I've come on the forum for information..

            Originally posted by arabian View Post
            I don't think it says much for a parent who encourages their children to disrespect the other parent.
            That's what I've been dealing with for years. Now today, for me - I'm not encouraging my son to disrespect anyone. Again I think you are confusing a individual's right to see his parent, with him flouting the law and "disrespecting" the OP. ?? Those are exclusive of each other.

            This reminds me of the old debate about whether it is best to "break" a horse or "train" a horse.
            If the horse is of sound mind and body train him or he'll never trust you again. Don't ruin that relationship..

            To support what Links17 said re same gender: Yes this is part of it. I predicted this when he was 5 and now see I was right. Every year he gets older there is a noticible need to have more time with his Dad or a male figure. hmm I wonder why? strange? Not rocket science people! lol. In my case true. Moms teach Mom stuff and Dad's teach Dad stuff - easy to understand and Kids are craving that transfer of knowledge. Most Moms don't have the same experience Dad's do. (I qualify it with most ok?)

            Originally posted by standing on the sidelines View Post
            so if the kid doesn't want to go to school then you should take their feelings into consideration and not make them? If the child hurts themselves in an accident and doesn't want to go to the doctor, you cannot force them due to them having feelings??
            Again over simplifying. Use helpful examples lol - BTW, We never have a problem with those kinds of examples but if we did, I could not handle it the same way I would have when he was 8 yrs old could I? If you have to force them at that point then something has failed already previously or perhaps recently in some cases. I would look at what is going on rather than using the hammer approach. Medical issue? depends on the impact of not going. I would force if long term or life threatening impact - of course. Contrary to what Arabian was suggesting earlier - I'm not playing the "nice guy" but rather trying to be even measured in my parenting. In other words going about things the smart way. (ya that includes not ramming a court order down my son's throat)

            Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
            This ^^^
            If your child says "i don't want to go to school", your answer isn't "ok, you don't have to". If it is, your a poor parent. You should say "you're going, and if there is a real reason why you don't want to go, lets work it out."
            Agree

            Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
            If this situation was where the child didn't want to go to the access parents house, and that parent was the dad, people here would be saying the exact same thing I am saying. That until you change the court order, the kid has to go.

            You'd think people here had limits on rules/laws/court orders that once a certain age/height/weight/bra size a child (remember folks until 18 they are still children) get a say. They don't. You're the parent, it is on you to act like one.
            Disagree. I don't force him to go to school because it's some kind of law as you view it, but because I think he needs an education. Are we robots or parents? lol "MUST FOLLOW LAW, COMPUTE.." Ethics are where its at people, Law is a convention based on ethics, its not perfect, get that in your head. They are changing all the time.

            And I'm sorry but you are wrong. Children do get a say. Again you are over simplifying. The courts and you seem to worship recognize a number of different status brackets when it come to age. (age of consent, age allowed to stay home alone, age allowed to babysit, to ride on back of motorcycle etc.) Again what fantasy land are you living in when you see only Child / Adult with the flip switch at 18? I question your motives for being on here. perhaps you are more worried about your kids not wanting to see you in which case court orders are your only thread of hope or you simply don't care. Not sure which one it is. But you can't make statements like you just did re 18 yr olds and expect us to take you seriously? Again not helpful or useful for this topic because you do not seem to see things as they are. I say this respectfully.

            Originally posted by Links17 View Post
            Everybody agrees school is important but we don't agree about the custody arrangement imposed by the judge thus we won't assist them enforce it. That is the difference.
            Exactly! I ramble too much! lol Well said. The judge will tell you they are not the parent and their decision may not always have the best outcome. My duty is to my child not the judge. I think a good judge only comes down hard when they see that priority conflicting with the child's best interest.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by HammerDad View Post
              Do you pick and choose what laws you follow based on what you believe as well? Would you expect your neighbour to adhere to the rule of law when, if they didn't, it would impact you negatively?

              The answer to this issue is that the boy has to go back and forth, as per the order, until someone is successful in changing the order. Then you follow the new terms.

              We don't get to pick and choose the clauses in the order we adhere to unless it says we are empowered to do so.
              Again simplistic and naive. Garbage laws etc. are there to benefit society. You break them, there will be consequences. I'm not worried about us all going down some kind of slippery slope as you allude to. Courts are there to help us create these laws. An access order is there to bring some consistency, routine and formalized arrangement or agreement to a often stressful and contentious situation. Everyone getting along? The court will tell you go handle it yourself. You don't need to be in there wasting everyone's time. Sign an agreement if you want. But in tug of war situations an order is needed but when the teenager reaches 14-15, let's be honest everyone including the courts takes a different approach. Don't confuse that with rioting in the streets etc.. that's just a bad comparison.

              I want to know what others have learned in terms of this situation at this stage where a teenager has hit 14. I'm sure if the OP wants to be a dick about it they can make it difficult for us or can they? That's my real question in all of this. I'm sorry I don't buy the argument that a 14 that's 14 yrs old, has to be told he has no choice in the matter and has to go back and forth as per an access order. In terms of my views I have not read anything here that would change them at this point.

              Originally posted by Straittohell View Post
              3) Harold, you say that the agreement and dispute is between your ex and yourself, and that you shouldn't be involving your child because it has nothing to do with him; that is one of the most deeply flawed things I have ever read. It has EVERYTHING to do with your child, especially considering that the agreement is about access to the child in question. Your child has made himself involved at that level by trying to get you to not follow it. Not okay.
              No my child simply wants to exercise his right to see one of his parents, or to actually not only see but sleep over which is more the technical issue here perhaps. Thinking it has everything to do with your child is the wrong viewpoint. You must separate your own needs from that of the best interest of your child. This is one area where the courts are so right. As long as you everyone stays true to that and that's a big IF here .. then everyone wins because your child got the best outcome. You can assume that's what I want. So what I am saying is that the order and the child s best interest don't always coincide. We never got to go to trial, but an order was created based on the status quo and some BS from a bad OCL agent I alluded to earlier.

              Now a year later my teenage is 14 and he wants more time with his Dad. He did not agree to any order and subjected to it. I'm hoping that the police and the courts will respect that. I believe they will. If they let 16 yr old gt behind a wheel ( scary!) they can respect where a 14 yr old wants to stay.

              So no in this sense it has nothing to do with him. It would be foolish to ask him to base his needs on some access order he had nothing to do with.

              I do encourage him to follow the schedule but am completely open to changes. Like I said before it goes both ways now. Obviously we cant's have mayhem in terms of a schedule and just bend to his fancy, but he's not asking for that. He just wants another day at Dad's. If on my day he wants to sleep over at a friends or go with his mom to visit someone special from out of town etc. Am I going to say no it's my day? The difference now is the difficult ex, and that's an important distinction to make here, is not the deciding factor. My son talks to me and we decide. We can plan at that level now because of his maturity and avoid the conflict with the mom. Those days are finally over.

              The power has shifted away from a manipulative, parent alienating, bitter, hateful ex wife to my 14 yr old son. Let's celebrate that. I will definitely update this thread on any outcomes.

              H

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Stillbreathing View Post
                I'm not advocating letting a teen do whatever they want. There are all kinds of families and situations. In 99% of circumstances the right thing to do is encourage your child to go on visits with the other parent when they are teens. There gets to be a point where you can not "force " them and neither can the police. At that point all you can do is be patient and continue to encourage them to maintain some form of communication and keep the lines open.

                At 14/15 they are at an age where they fall through the cracks. Parents are supposedly responsible for them until age 18 yet if they let's say run away and go live with a friend and the friend's parents, the police will not force them to return.
                Kids whose parents are abusive to them will often refuse any contact with the abusive parent as soon as they are old enough. They often shun the abusive parent for life no what a family court judge orders. The kid who is forced to go to visits with an abusive parent eventualy takes matters into their own hands and stops going.
                If there is no abuse involved it may be just a teen stage they are going through. They'll get over it.
                If the kids are subjected to further trauma and abuse by being forced to go to a parent who is terrorizing them then more power to the kid for putting their foot down and saying no!
                I wish I could just summarize as well as the above quote. Well put!

                Comment


                • #53
                  I think it is a slippery slope. If you encourage your son to ignore the access order because you think it is biased and your ex is "bitter and angry" and your son should be able to choose where he lives, be prepared to apply the same logic when your son is 15 and decides he doesn't want to go to school because the teachers are stupid and school is lame. Or when he's 18 and he doesn't want to get a job or go to postsecondary because it would be boring so he's just going to play computer games in your basement. You may see these as completely separate, but to your son, the message is consistent: he doesn't have to do things he is legally required to do if he thinks they're stupid.

                  There are legal remedies for your situation but they involve negotiation with the ex and procedures to change your order. Telling your kid he can stay at your place when the order says he should go back to his mother may be a great way for you to stick it to Mom, but it's teaching the kid lessons that are going to backfire pretty badly. Best interest of the child? Don't let him drive the bus.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Stripes is right. How YOU feel about your ex wife has no bearing on the parent-child relationship your son has with both of you. If she had been successful in permanently alienating you from him you would be fighting for access. Now you have allowed him to dictate a schedule that may lead to no access for his mother. A judge will give you serious trouble for that.

                    Talk to your ex about changing the order. Have your son talk to his mother about changing the order. Then CHANGE THE ORDER.

                    Two wrongs dont make a right and your refusal to adhere to an order is wrong. Regardless of his age and how he feels you still have a legal document signed between the two adults who agreed on where he is to live. Yes hes old enough to have a voice and he should use it to tell his mother he wants a change.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      No it's not to stick it to his mom. lol. Believe me, a few years ago, maybe, I was that frustrated and bitter myself. I'm at a place now where I have let go of all the perceived wrong doings. Being able to build up that trust and respect with my son against all the contrary efforts of my ex over the last 7 yrs has helped me finally put away that anger and focus on my son.

                      My son also knows the difference between right and wrong or has a good handle on it for one his age. Remember my comments on Ethics? It's about making ethical decisions and he knows that not liking a teacher is not an excuse to cut class or school its self. Right? Again don't over simplify. Now if the teacher is abusive or doing something that is hurting my son, you can bet he won't be going to that class. My son's well being always comes first. You think he wants an extra day weekly with his Dad because he thinks his mom is being stupid, lame etc? lol No. That's not the situation here. He's 14 not 8 yrs old throwing some kind of temper tantrum. It's not a whimsical thing.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                        Stripes is right. How YOU feel about your ex wife has no bearing on the parent-child relationship your son has with both of you. If she had been successful in permanently alienating you from him you would be fighting for access. Now you have allowed him to dictate a schedule that may lead to no access for his mother. A judge will give you serious trouble for that.

                        Talk to your ex about changing the order. Have your son talk to his mother about changing the order. Then CHANGE THE ORDER.

                        Two wrongs dont make a right and your refusal to adhere to an order is wrong. Regardless of his age and how he feels you still have a legal document signed between the two adults who agreed on where he is to live. Yes hes old enough to have a voice and he should use it to tell his mother he wants a change.
                        Respectfully I think this is a naive view. First his mom is of the mind to never grant that change. I've tried to illustrate that in my earlier posts. So that will drag out for months and months.

                        I think the point is he will decide where he will live. That doesn't mean just leave it up in the air, but if he wants to see another parent you need to respect that and not treat him like he is 5 yrs old.

                        If his mother continues the emotional abuse and punishment for something as simple as wanting to be around his father more often then yes she will lose him and it will be no one's fault but hers. Not mine, not my son's but hers.

                        I think at his age, he has to be the priority not some schedule which now is to simple really to accommodate the life of a teenager. Sometimes that means being with one parent or the other based on what is the most efficient in terms of getting him to where he needs to go etc., avail of other parent, resources etc..I'm sure if I polled parents with 16yr olds this would be a different conversation entirely.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Well when your ex files contempt against you have fun explaining all your reasons for not following the order to a judge.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The point isn't accommodating the schedule of a teenager - from what I've seen, many divorced parents of teens are pretty flexible about when the kid is where, depending on friends, weekend plans, etc. However, in these cases the flexibility is achieved by the parents deciding to be flexible and deviate from the written schedules, not by the kid deciding he doesn't want to follow the court order, abetted by one of the parents. If your son is a mature 14 year old, he should be able to understand that there are appropriate ways for him to get more time with Dad. If in your view he's mature enough to make his own decisions about residence, he's also mature enough to talk to Mom about it. If Mom says absolutely no way, there are other routes to changing the order - mediation, in the worst case court. If your son has a strong sense of ethics, he'll understand that ignoring the court order, while it is tempting, is unethical because it's tantamount to saying that rules are for other people.

                            If he was being neglected or abused or in danger at his mother's house, emergency measures would be justified. But if he just wants another day per week with his father, it's not an emergency. Again, it's not unreasonable for him to want more time with his father, the issue is how he goes about achieving that goal.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              stripes: Even us adults have a hard time dealing with the courts knowing how imperfect they are. As mature is my 14 yr old is, we can't expect him to be ready for that.

                              Ethically speaking its about a 14/15 yr old's right to spend time with a given parent - not about "going to court" etc. I think we can just agree to differ on this point.

                              If a child any age loves and or needs a to be with a parent for example and a lets say police officer says to them: " Hey you, do not see that parent, I'm ordering you.." The kid knows better and once over the initial fear will disobey the cop.

                              Lets go way off topic and use another example: If a new law comes into affect in your city saying that if you see a Muslim person fallen on the street or in a car accident, you are not allowed to help them because you may be aiding a terrorist, or liable for some bomb threat as a result, would you just blindly follow that law or help the person in need?

                              That's ethics, don't get it confused with conformism and say things like "well if you're a good kid you'll go through the proper channels" Lets be real.

                              I don't think I'll get charged with contempt. Probably because her lawyer already told her its not going to work in our case. But I'll let you know.

                              If I do go I will simply ask the judge to set up an interview with my 14yr old before ruling. Remember I am not getting in the way of her picking him up etc. and surely you don't expect me to be legally obligated to force him back to him mom's, so on what grounds would I get charged with contempt?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Harold Callahan View Post
                                stripes: Even us adults have a hard time dealing with the courts knowing how imperfect they are. As mature is my 14 yr old is, we can't expect him to be ready for that.

                                Ethically speaking its about a 14/15 yr old's right to spend time with a given parent - not about "going to court" etc. I think we can just agree to differ on this point.

                                If a child any age loves and or needs a to be with a parent for example and a lets say police officer says to them: " Hey you, do not see that parent, I'm ordering you.." The kid knows better and once over the initial fear will disobey the cop.

                                Lets go way off topic and use another example: If a new law comes into affect in your city saying that if you see a Muslim person fallen on the street or in a car accident, you are not allowed to help them because you may be aiding a terrorist, or liable for some bomb threat as a result, would you just blindly follow that law or help the person in need?

                                That's ethics, don't get it confused with conformism and say things like "well if you're a good kid you'll go through the proper channels" Lets be real.

                                I don't think I'll get charged with contempt. Probably because her lawyer already told her its not going to work in our case. But I'll let you know.

                                If I do go I will simply ask the judge to set up an interview with my 14yr old before ruling. Remember I am not getting in the way of her picking him up etc. and surely you don't expect me to be legally obligated to force him back to him mom's, so on what grounds would I get charged with contempt?
                                Of course the child will disobey the court Order, particularly if one parent is encouraging him to. Simple really.

                                Comment

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