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  • 60:40 split: how can 40% "be made up"?

    Hello,

    I am fairly new here, so my question might seem rather basic. If I want a 60:40 custody split for the children, how can my (the father's) 40% be reached?
    Does this mean: 3 nights the kids sleep at my place and 4 nights at my wife's place? Or would it also be an option to have the kids 2 nights at my place, 5 nights at my wife's place and I also take them e.g. 3 afternoons per week to reach my 40%?

    The deal is that my wife is not really willing to negotiate and so I need to find options to make it "attractive" for her. I will not settle for anything less than 40%.

    Any other creative solutions?

    My wife says that it is hard for the kids to switch homes during the school week and she wants them during the week, but also a day on the weekend...

    Thanks!

  • #2
    If you want at least 40%, either they switch homes during the week, or you do week-on week-off - if she wants more time, she can take them during some weekday afterschool. Week-on week-off can be difficult though because you then have to cooperate nicely in order to sign them up for ANY afterschool activities.

    "My wife says ...." - what do YOU think? Obviously this statement serves her well, but is it really that big of a problem? You know your kids, your housing/school situation, and how well you can each support them in schoolwork and extracurriculars. Start putting your thoughts together to knock that one down.

    You can request splitting summer vacation 50-50 too ... this will bring your yearly % up also.
    Last edited by dinkyface; 08-23-2010, 02:05 PM.

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    • #3
      From the way your post is worded, your motivation appears to be financial. Be careful with that or your ex will use it against you.

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      • #4
        No, it is not financial, but I want the kids to stay over at my place. And at least 2 nights is better than having them stay with my wife all the time. I just need to be "flexible" to accommodate her, since she is tough on negotiating.

        I don't think that it is that big of a problem if the kids need to switch homes once during the week, but my wife tries to talk me into believing that it is a big deal. Of course the kids will need some time to adjust to the change, but that is normal, I guess. And some child psychologist told her that it is disruptive for the kids to switch homes during the week.

        Concerning summer vacation: if we split 50:50 and I have to sign them up for summer camps (because of work), this is still considered "time spent with dad"?

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        • #5
          Why does it have to be 40%? Why not 38% or 35%? It looks like your position is purely financial becuse 40% is the magic number that changes the dollar value attached to child support claims.

          If you have the kids in school, daycare, summer camp or boot camp during their time with you, it's still considered their time with you. Teachers/instructors/camp counsellors don't get access time so wherever you decide to take them during 'your' time still counts as your time,

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          • #6
            The deal is that my wife potentially wants to move away with the kids. I extensively talked to my lawyer about it and he said, I should insist on 40% otherwise there is a chance that she might be allowed to move.

            Of course it is a side-effect that child support goes down, but this is not much, since my wife makes less than $10k per year now.

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            • #7
              You can keep her from moving the kids out of town regardless, not sure why your lawyer would have told you that - perhaps ask for clarification on that point. She would have to present a VERY strong case that it's in the best interest of the kids to move them - difficult to do.

              Do a search for 'mobility' and you'll find all kinds of info on how to keep her from moving the kids away.

              Here's a quick explanation:

              Family Law Toronto :: Child Custody :: www.familylawtoronto.com

              MOBILITY RIGHTS
              The issue of mobility rights arises when the custodial parent wants to move with the child and the proposed move is far enough away from the child's current residence as to make frequent access impossible. Mobility issues usually occur after a final order or agreement has been made concerning custody. Some agreements or orders contain specific restrictions on the custodial parent's right to move with the child beyond a certain distance. Depending on the agreement or order, it may be the custodial parent who is asking the court for an order permitting the move or it may be the access parent who is asking the court to prevent the move.

              As with all issues concerning children, the court will focus on the best interests of the child. The parent's reason for the move is irrelevant if it is not in the child's best interests. The custodial parent's wishes will be accorded a large amount of respect, it having been previously determined that the custodial parent is the one more suited to determine the child's best interests, but the courts will not mindlessly defer to the decision of that parent. For example, a parent may have a lucrative job offer in a country that is unstable or potentially dangerous or where there is a comparatively low standard of health care. In such a case, the parent's desire to move may be quite sensible and justifiable, but it may not be in the child's best interests.

              The court will assume that it is in the child's best interests to maintain meaningful contact with the access parent. Meaningful contact is not defined simply by time spent with an access parent; it also means the frequency and quality of time spent. The party proposing the move will have to satisfy the court that the access that will have to be substituted for the current access will fulfill the needs of the child with respect to the maintenance and growth of a strong relationship with the access parent.

              The party seeking permission to move should prepare a detailed custody plan that includes an evaluation of the facilities available in the proposed locale as compared to those facilities in the child's current location. Costs of living, availability of health care and education, social services and support, the cultural environment, the economic profile of the area are all matters that will be considered by a judge. Failure to properly explore and present this information can derail plans for a parent's proposed move.

              The access parent, on the other hand, will highlight those aspects of the move that will be destabilizing to the child, while emphasizing features of the child's current residence that are superior to those of the child's proposed new residence. Areas that should be examined by the access parent in order to show that not changing the child's residence is in the child's best interest include conditions in the new locale such as rates of crime, unemployment, per capita public expenditure on health care, availability of social services and schools.

              If the parent is permitted to move, it will usually come at a cost. The amount of time the child currently spends with the access parent will be approximately matched and, depending on the distance, this can mean the child will be away from the custodial parent for weeks at a time throughout the year. Also, the custodial parent may be expected to share or even assume the added cost of travel to facilitate access.

              Mobility cases can be quite expensive for a client because of the amount of research and the need to provide persuasive presentation materials. Also, it is very likely that an assessment will be ordered. Finally, early resolution of a mobility dispute is unlikely as it is very difficult to reach a settlement given what is at stake to each party.

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              • #8
                Her child psychologist is not up on the latest info then. I have a child psychologist that's indicated the latest research indicates that children should only be spending ~ 1 day away from each parent per 1 year of age to better facilitate a bond.

                Of course, Psychology is complete horse crap in my experience.

                In any event, what IS proven true is that children adjust, most often far more quickly than the parents do.

                The key is to be CONSISTENT.

                As long as you live relatively close by, and are willing/able to get them to school/etc, there is no good reason you cannot have 40-50%. INSIST on that.

                There are a crap load of arrangements, but typically you'll see week on /week off, with the non access parent getting either a couple hours mid week (usually Wednesday) or telephone access or something.

                Other alternatives are a rotating 3 day/4 day swap, or a straight 3-4 split, or whatever.

                If you are ok with the EOW and 1 day through the week typical screwjob, then cool, if you aren't then fight for it.

                Figure out what makes the most sense to your situation and offer it...the ex doesn't get to simply say no because she doesn't like it. If you push forward she WILL have to explain her reasons to a judge. As long as you are able to refute them, you're golden.

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                • #9
                  What makes 40% enough? Why wouldn't you want 45 or 50%, or why wouldn't you settle for 35%. Your use of "the magic number" indicates that you are doing it for financial reasons. If that is not the case, get out of that mindset!

                  Switching homes once during the week shouldn't be a big problem, especially if you can get them to and from school, support their extra-curriculars etc and be a good parent. Overall the inconvenience of switching homes is far less detrimental (if you can even call it that) than NOT having their father in their lives on a regular basis. If you are serious about being a full-time father, then prove it, and ask for 50-50. Even if you are willing to settle for a little less, you shouldn't sell your kids short. If you go ahead and ask for 40% be prepared to accept less.

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                  • #10
                    I was thinking of starting at 50% and then let her "negotiate" me down to 40%, this way she thinks she has "won", as I don't want to end up in a war worse than it is now.
                    And realistically, from a job point of view, 3 days per week would be manageable for me. With 4 days, I would have to drop them off at a day care all day.

                    I don't want my will at all cost, I want my kids to be happy and have as much access to both parents as possible. My wife is more stubborn here, but I don't take her as a role model.

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                    • #11
                      The best interests of the child can sometimes include the best interests of the parent and financial reasons ARE reasons. If he has 38% then he's getting hosed because he's providing significant care and expense while the child is with him but getting no acknowledgment of that and paying 100% support to the ex.. Yes, judges frown on custody claims made purely for financial reasons. If his ex was on here how much do want to bet she would trying to keep him just under 40%?

                      I also agree with his lawyer, if you aren't shooting for equal parenting, then what is your argument against mobility? The two go hand in hand and it's easier to argue both.

                      That said, LittleMountain, I would agree that you keep financial considerations out of the conversation. Target 50/50 shared parenting for the sake of shared parenting, you don't want to be less of a factor in your child's life than the ex. Stress that as far as your feelings go, you would personally want 100% but you believe that the child needs the mother as well.

                      Friday night through Sunday night is 3 days a week, and it doesn't interfer with school. It allows you to pick your child up from school and touch base with the teacher and meet his friends and other parents, and it allows you to drop off Monday morning and never have to deal with your ex except during holidays.

                      Your suggestion will be that parenting will be a flexible 50/50, you and the ex will stay close to that but remain flexible about holidays, long weekends etc and simply consider that you are joint custodial and equal shared parents without fighting over hours. That will mean that you can offer the occasional weekend if the ex has something planned like a visit to grandparents, and make up the time on another occasion without turning it into a custody battle.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mess View Post

                        Friday night through Sunday night is 3 days a week, and it doesn't interfer with school. It allows you to pick your child up from school and touch base
                        Friday night through Sunday Night is TWO days a week (friday night to saturday night is 1 day, saturday night to sunday night is the 2nd day) - or do I misunderstand how time is calculated?

                        Dan

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                        • #13
                          We currently have an arrangement where by my son alternates weekly between homes but on either the Monday or the Tuesday of each week, they go for an over night visit with the alternate parent. Exchange is done from school or day-care so it's easier on my son.

                          What is your current access arrangement? It's really don't matter what she wants, the courts look at what has been status quo for the kids. How much time would you normally spend with them?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DanTess View Post
                            Friday night through Sunday Night is TWO days a week (friday night to saturday night is 1 day, saturday night to sunday night is the 2nd day) - or do I misunderstand how time is calculated?

                            Dan
                            Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night is three nights. Perhaps I was unclear on that.

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                            • #15
                              Normally for it to count as a day it needs to include an overnight, because the courts consider a an overnight reason to have a bed. Sleeping over night makes all the difference in these calculations becasue they were considered when the cs tables were made.

                              I would not really care about negotiating with her. She is showing that she is not interested in being fair, and is not looking out for the kids. If a week and a week exchange works best for the kids, then ask for that.

                              She already has no problems with you having access, so why not ask for 50% The judge will decide the calculation anyways. If the judge thinks you are asking for 50% just to get out of support, he can still order you to pay support, or can calculate less access to you during vacations.

                              If you just go into court and say that she feels a weekly exchange is best for the kids, and you have her emails, then you are half way there. Just point out how a weekly exchange would be best for all involved.

                              Comment

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