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10 years of spousal support .... Is it enough?

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  • 10 years of spousal support .... Is it enough?

    Married in 1990
    Separated and divorced in 2001
    Kids were 2, 7 and 8 at the the time
    Kids are now 12, 17 and 18 all living at home.
    Wife not working at time of divorce. She had a history of consistent working
    but was tending to children at the time in history.
    Has been working for 8 years with steady job making $13/hour but with her
    skills should be making around $25/hour. She likes her job and the people so
    not motivated to look elsewhere.
    Was paying $2500/month spousal way back when
    In 2005 went back and had it lowered to $980/month with a review possible in
    Sept 2005.
    I never pursued lowering it since until a few weeks ago.
    Signed over house and a car to wife in 2005.

    It has now been 10 years of spousal and child. I have no problem with child
    support obviously but should the spousal be over? *

    I sent her an offer of $400/month for spousal for next 12 months and spousal
    then ends in a year. *She said "see you in court". My lawyer says that it
    should end.

    She firmly believes she is entitled to this and says I am lucky she has
    never gone after a cost of living increase. *My understanding is that
    Spousal is designed to assist the disadvantaged spouse for a reasonable
    period of time until they can become financially self supportive. *

    What say ye good folks? *Is a court likely to say "enough is enough", "lower
    it dramatically", "keep it going" or (sigh) "she gets more".

    Thanks

  • #2
    i think your offer is fair to her. She has rebuilt her life. Its hard to say what the courts would decide but i would persue it.

    Comment


    • #3
      One thing I've learned is people can "firmly believe they are entitled" to anything - Doesn't make it so.

      Comment


      • #4
        What major factors come into play after 10 years when determining the continuation or termination of Spousal?

        My theory is that even with an apparent ability to continue to pay I should be allowed to move forward and improve my lifestyle after 10 years without the burden of engrossed Spousal Support.

        Will the court ask:
        Can he still pay this?
        Does she still deserve it?
        Is it smply time to shut it down?

        Who will be under more scrutiny in court during the decision making process her or me?

        Comment


        • #5
          4.3 Entitlement Issues on Review and Variation

          Entitlement issues can also arise on review and variation, most obviously in the context of applications to terminate spousal support. Such applications may be triggered by the recipient’s remarriage or by the recipient’s employment or simply by the passage of time. In many cases duration under the Advisory Guidelines is indefinite (duration not specified), thus requiring a discretionary determination of whether termination is appropriate. Even in cases where the Advisory Guidelines generate a range for duration, courts may sometimes prefer to make the initial order indefinite and later deal with the issue of termination on a subsequent review or variation, particularly where the suggested time limits are fairly lengthy.
          Determining whether termination is appropriate will often require an analysis of whether the initial basis for entitlement continues to exist. Although the issue on termination is often framed in terms of whether the recipient has become <Q>"self-sufficient", the issue can also be seen as one of whether there is a continuing entitlement to support. The determination of when a spouse has become self-sufficient is one of those <Q>"hard"</Q> issues in the law of spousal support that was there before the Advisory Guidelines. While the Guidelines, as discussed in Chapter 13, take into account the obligation to make reasonable efforts towards self-sufficiency, they do not determine the hard issue of when self-sufficiency has been achieved and the law on this continues to evolve.</Q>
          The result on a termination application may differ depending on whether the initial award was compensatory or non-compensatory in nature, reinforcing once again the need for a delineation of the basis for entitlement.<SUP>42</SUP> For example, remarriage may not mean an end to entitlement if the original basis for the support order was compensatory,<SUP>43</SUP> but it may if the basis was non-compensatory.<SUP>44</SUP>
          Thus far we have talked about how entitlement issues arise in the context of applications to reduce or terminate spousal support. Reviews or variations may also give rise to entitlement issues of a somewhat different sort when the recipient applies for an increase in spousal support, either because of a decrease in the recipient’s income or a post-separation increase in the payor’s income.
          As we emphasize in Chapter 14 which deals with the application of the Guidelines in the context of review and variation, one cannot determine the spousal support outcome in these cases simply by applying the formulas to the new incomes. The current law requires in each of these cases that there be a threshold determination of whether the change in income is relevant to the support obligation and if so, to what extent. The issue can be seen as one of <Q>"entitlement,"</Q> although it is not always framed in that language, and the analysis requires going back to the compensatory and non-compensatory bases for spousal support. Cases involving a post-separation increase in the payor’s income, for example, can be thought of as raising the issue of the recipient’s entitlement to share in that increase.<SUP>45</SUP>
          From Spousal Support Guidelines.

          Unfortunately there is no clear answer. You have to put together a reasoned and fact-support package of arguments and hope yours are better than hers.

          The length of SS is generally .5 to 1 year for each year of marriage. However with children involved SS can be indefinate until they have all left home. If you have shared custody that may be differernt. There are a thousand and one factors at play.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Mess ... read your reply and all I can say is "huh?"

            Comment


            • #7
              Gary,
              Ten years of spousal support in your situation is more than long enough!

              Right now, you are stressing and worrying about this nonsense. You may even pay a professional arguerer to bullshit you with possibilities of this and possibilities of that. It is all a waste because you have spent enough time paying spousal support.

              Just write a letter to your ex-wife saying that you are cutting off spousal support in two months and send it by registered mail. Let your wife do all of the research to figure out what you can and can not do. Let your wife pay a lawyer to read bullshit. Let your wife threaten to take you to court. Faced with having to pay a lawyer to read the same bullshit law-books that only hide the fact that it is all a gamble, my bet is that she will just take the pay cut and eat crow.

              Regardless of what is right or wrong, her pocket-book will be empty before she gets the courts to give her what she wants.

              Just out of curiosity, why did you two divorce?

              Comment


              • #8
                I wish it were that simple. The payments go through FRO. I cannot lower it without a court order.

                She apparently is seeing a lawyer today. I asked my lawyer 3 weeks ago, (after she replied to him saying she was meeting a lawyer), if we should file and serve her now or wait until she meets with this lawyer. His reply was:

                I would say wait. I consider this a positive step to have somebody else tell her the same story we are. Unless she gets bad advice but it is worth waiting for. These things sometimes take some time but we won't let it drag on.

                I cant beleive that even 10 years into this I back to fighting.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Were you demonstrably common law with her before 1990?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is too close to call. On the one hand Mess is spot on, you are at the one year to one year of marriage maximum for a mid term marriage (10 years). On the other hand they will argue that any alteration of this award while children are still in her care will disadvantage them (children) ( Judge is unlikely to disadvantage the children). Flip a coin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Everything is a coin toss.

                      I think my chances are pretty good at winning.

                      The two boys are now 18 and 17 and working parttime. They are now buying their own luxuries (DVD's movies, fast food etc). That should lessen the burden on her.

                      I am also convinced, (maybe wrongly so), that Child Support is to support them and Spousal is generally for her. She has been working, she has $250,000 equity in a house, she should be self sufficient after 10 years. If she is not at that point after 10 years should I still be responsible and held accountable for that?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Gary

                        I personally think that you have valid arguments. The equity in the house as well as the amount of time you have paid support should have helped her become very independent.

                        She must have realized that as the children got older she would be more responsible for herself---I also think the SS is for her, while child support is for the children.

                        In my opinion, even if she needed to sell the house and move, as long as she has CS and the kids are maintained, they are not disadvantaged.

                        I would tell her that SS is ending and let her lawyer contact you. Take your chances with the judge at this point, considering the amount you are paying each month.

                        Comment

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