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  • Appropriate overnight accommodations

    So situation is: Father of b(20mth) is finally coming to visit and has said he is tight for cash so Mother of boy was thinking she would offer him to stay in basement guest room.

    They have joint custody and up to now Mother has travelled to Father location 1000km away, stays at an aunts home and his father comes and picks up son at 7 am, often stays and has breakfast with him and then takes off for the day returning with son at 7 pm all ready for bed.

    This will be the first visit at Mothers location and she is hoping to make things go as smooth as possible. Because reality is that once son turns 2 the cost of 2 flights each time will create financial strain for Father and he does not do well when cash strapped. She is trying to graduate in longer visits with overnights starting at age 2 but up to now there has only been 2 visits in 8 months because Father does not want to spend any money on travel. ( he does have a 1/3 rd of table child support for travel costs, which pays for flights etc) he was offered open visitation but has declined to take advantage of this due to financial concerns.

    Is that okay? Can any complications arise, creating a precedent etc.

  • #2
    Is what ok? Staying in the basement overnight?

    If I stay in your basement overnight would that create a precedent? Would I be able to then just move in?

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    • #3
      I hope so, cause I could really use a place to live.

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      • #4
        Can I bring my cats too?

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        • #5
          I guess there isn't enough information here.

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          • #6
            That's pretty generous of Mother. I don't know if it would set any legal precedent (i.e. I don't think Father could just move into Mom's basement against her will whenever he's in town), but it might set up expectations on his part. Mom needs to think through these expectations and whether she would be okay with repeated visits from Dad. It might be worthwhile if having a free place to stay makes the difference for Dad between visiting his child and not visiting - best interests of the child. On the other hand, if Dad is an intrusive jerk, having access to Mom's space might lead to unnecessary drama. Perhaps Mom could write Dad a note offering to let him stay in the basement, and saying explicitly that this is a trial to see how things go, and is not an open-ended offer to Dad to stay whenever he's in town to see the kid.

            It's not clear how the cost of two flights will create financial strain for the father, as it sounds like the kid resides primarily with the mother. Why is the father traveling with the child?

            Comment


            • #7
              Well like any other situation there are so many different ways thins get sorted out. Mom moved back to home town 1000km away and it was agreed in custody settlement that son would live with Mom and Dad will have open Parenting time. Under the Family Law Act if there is a substantial distance between parents the ncp can ake an amount of the cs to assist in tavel and that is what happened. The child cannot travel alone until he is at last 8 so one parent has to travel with him. Up to now that has been the mother travelling to where the father lives? Dad now has a girlfriend, and another child, so has moved on, so there is no chance he will move into the basement on a permenant basis. It would be for 2 nights he would be in town parenting their son. He wants to take son for longer periods of time next year and some overnights so he wants to fly up and pick up son and go back home. That would be expensive, he has not really seen much of him over the past 8 months, so mother is trying to figure out how to make this happen for the benefit of son, because she is concerned it will be a big jump from hardly any time together to a full week away from her. So she was planning on offering him a place to stay while in town on the understanding that it was a trial basis.

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              • #8
                I think it was a big jump too, to go from living with dad and then moving hundreds of kilometers away and never seeing him.

                I sounds like she is offering the place to stay to keep the son with her and avoid the dad getting a place (hotel) for a few nights and keeping the son with him.

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                • #9
                  No. Thats a little harse of a presumption to make. He will not come unless he has some sort of free accommodation. So in the abscence of involving family and friends she was going to offer her guest room. Dad had some alcohol related issues and the court order is no overnight until the child reaches the age of 2 and Dad has maintain sobriety for 1 year.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
                    Under the Family Law Act if there is a substantial distance between parents the ncp can make an amount of the cs to assist in tavel and that is what happened.
                    Where does it state this in the Family Law Act? I am not familiar with this area of the FLA in Ontario nor have I seen any explicit statement to this in the FLR/FLA. There is case law that you can rely upon to get this put in place generally but, I am not aware of a specific Rule in support of this "fact"?

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                    • #11
                      Circumstances that may cause undue hardship
                      (2) Circumstances that may cause a parent, spouse or child to suffer undue hardship include,
                      (a) the parent or spouse has responsibility for an unusually high level of debts reasonably incurred to support the parents or spouses and their children during cohabitation or to earn a living;
                      (b) the parent or spouse has unusually high expenses in relation to exercising access to a child;
                      (c) the parent or spouse has a legal duty under a judgment, order or written separation agreement to support any person;
                      (d) the spouse has a legal duty to support a child, other than a child of the marriage, who is,
                      (i) under the age of majority, or
                      (ii) the age of majority or over but is unable, by reason of illness, disability or other cause, to obtain the necessaries of life;
                      (e) the parent has a legal duty to support a child, other than the child who is the subject of this application, who is under the age of majority or who is enrolled in a full time course of education;
                      (f) the parent or spouse has a legal duty to support any person who is unable to obtain the necessaries of life due to an illness or disability. O. Reg. 391/97, s. 10 (2).
                      This is from the Child Support Guidelines, which are incorporated into the Family Law Act and are part of the legislation, although published separately.

                      Section 2 (b) is understood to mean that if a parent has to travel excessive distances and incure costs to access the child, then this will be a valid hardship claim and support will be reduced.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mess View Post
                        This is from the Child Support Guidelines, which are incorporated into the Family Law Act and are part of the legislation, although published separately.

                        Section 2 (b) is understood to mean that if a parent has to travel excessive distances and incure costs to access the child, then this will be a valid hardship claim and support will be reduced.
                        Undue hardship has to be proven first though. It isn't automatic. Sub clause 3 and 4 of this part of the FLA in Ontario is painful:

                        http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/reg...391_e.htm#BK12

                        Standards of living must be considered

                        (3) Despite a determination of undue hardship under subsection (1), an application under that subsection must be denied by the court if it is of the opinion that the household of the parent or spouse who claims undue hardship would, after determining the amount of child support under any of sections 3 to 5, 8 or 9, have a higher standard of living than the household of the other parent or spouse. O. Reg. 391/97, s. 10 (3).

                        Standards of living test

                        (4) In comparing standards of living for the purpose of subsection (3), the court may use the comparison of household standards of living test set out in Schedule II. O. Reg. 391/97, s. 10 (4).
                        Schedule II is crappy to deal with... The low income tables in STEP 4 are really... low to be able to claim undue hardship on...

                        "1 adult and 2 children = 17,649"

                        So you have to demonstrate you will have less than 17,649 to pass STEP 4 after having to pay for exercising the cost of access to the children.

                        Good Luck!
                        Tayken
                        Last edited by Tayken; 08-01-2013, 09:40 PM.

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                        • #13
                          It's not automatic but this clause is specific to travel expenses. It doesn't mean they have to do a full budget comparison. If you can show the expenses, you have proven the hardship.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mess View Post
                            Is what ok? Staying in the basement overnight?

                            If I stay in your basement overnight would that create a precedent? Would I be able to then just move in?
                            Could you move into my basement, Mess? I could really use the in-house expertise.

                            It's a nice place on the water.... Well, just think about it, then.

                            And I see Tayken is back. You can come too, Tayken. Hehe.

                            Last edited by Qrious; 08-01-2013, 11:50 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It was asked for during the settlement being drawn up and she was advised by her lawyer that it was quite commonly given. But Father does not want to spend any more money than that amount taken from cs. So he will not come to see son unless its cheap.

                              Comment

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