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  • Pandemic - do the right thing lawyers

    We are facing an unprecedented national emergency that could go on for months if not years.

    Many parents are losing their only source of income and are faced with little recourse to adjust or defer their support obligations.

    The legal profession could do the right thing and slash or eliminate fees to help parents in a national emergency.

    Post free advice here, give rock bottom or no charge advice to help your clients. Help people and kids in a NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

    If a parent cannot pay why should the legal profession profit? It a parent is not receiving support why should lawyers take cash that should go for grocereis. Parents have lost their jobs, income, daycare, transportation and in some cases health benefits.

    Those that profit should be ashamed IMHO. Do the right thing.

    End of rant.

  • #2
    The legal profession could do the right thing and slash or eliminate fees to help parents in a national emergency.
    We have rent to pay, children to feed, and staff who in turn have rent to pay and children to feed. My firm operates on a thin margin as is. By the end of the week 2 of my staff will probably need to be laid off if business continues to a standstill.

    Many lawyers are stepping up and offering more pro bono advice than they usually would, particularly on employment/layoff issues. (it's being talked about extensively in lawyer chat groups).

    Some lawyers have the savings/income to do an extended period of pro bono/reduced fee service. Those who can, should.

    Other lawyers cannot. Younger lawyers in particular do not have muskoka cottages or million dollar investment accounts. Between tuition costs, real estate costs and a general rise in the cost of living... we're just making ends meet.
    Last edited by Kinso; 03-23-2020, 10:18 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Kinso View Post
      We have rent to pay, children to feed, and staff who in turn have rent to pay and children to feed. My firm operates on a thin margin as is. By the end of the week 2 of my staff will probably need to be laid off if business continues to a standstill.

      Many lawyers are stepping up and offering more pro bono advice than they usually would, particularly on employment/layoff issues. (it's being talked about extensively in lawyer chat groups).

      Some lawyers have the savings/income to do an extended period of pro bono/reduced fee service. Those who can, should.

      Other lawyers cannot. Younger lawyers in particular do not have muskoka cottages or million dollar investment accounts. Between tuition costs, real estate costs and a general rise in the cost of living... we're just making ends meet.
      We all should do what we can
      Your comments are articulate and germane as always !

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      • #4
        As long as you have equity on your home lawyer will continue to milk you. Doesn't matter if your unemployed. Once a lawyer has prepared your financials he knows exactly if you can pay legal fees or not. When a lawyer is allowed to charge more for his fees than a brain surgeon saving lives it is almost as bad as covid19.

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        • #5
          If you are lucky enough to have benefits for counselling why not use them to get help with co-parenting issues such as schedules, home schooling and stress.

          Most therapists are offering secure online services.

          Way cheaper than legal proceedings, and less stressful.

          There are also community counselling and mental health services.

          Family doctors can also help put with stress management including referrals to OHIP covered treatment if needed.

          If anyone wants to form a support online chat group I am open. Maybe one of our lurking lawyers would uncloak and lend a hand too.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
            The legal profession could do the right thing and slash or eliminate fees to help parents in a national emergency.
            Very few people would volunteer for a pay cut.

            Even if I did volunteer for a pay cut, I feel that my car loan will likely not be cut. Groceries do not seem to be cheaper, insurance companies have not slashed premiums, and my internet costs to post my words of wisdom have remained shockingly unchanged.

            What makes lawyers special? Why should they accept less money when anybody (who has not been laid off) is still taking everything that they can?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Janus View Post
              Very few people would volunteer for a pay cut.

              Even if I did volunteer for a pay cut, I feel that my car loan will likely not be cut. Groceries do not seem to be cheaper, insurance companies have not slashed premiums, and my internet costs to post my words of wisdom have remained shockingly unchanged.

              What makes lawyers special? Why should they accept less money when anybody (who has not been laid off) is still taking everything that they can?
              Res ipsa loquitur.
              Every one for themselves.
              Charming and consistent with the "profession".

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                Res ipsa loquitur.
                quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Janus View Post
                  quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur
                  Wish I had taken more latin. Maybe not. Stay safe. Thanks for the comments

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                  • #10
                    Lawyers have to pay their bills and overhead too. Remember, they are running a business, just like any other business that needs to stay afloat. A mechanic charges you parts AND labour, a lawyer charges you for their expertise which is knowledge-related. If you have a good relationship with lawyer, you can ask for deferred payments, or a promise to pay at a later time, etc.. Sometimes you can ask a question here or there as a one-off and they won't charge you.....those are the nice ones.

                    I was fortunate to find an extremely nice lawyer who genuinely cared. Previous to this lawyer, I had an terrible bloodsucking lawyer. I told the firm that I didn't have much money and needed my matter resolved as cost-effective as possible, so they assigned a junior lawyer. Junior lawyer kept meeting with Senior lawyer to discuss my file. Guess who kept getting charged $650/hr for meetings between a junior and senior lawyer?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LovingDad1234 View Post
                      Lawyers have to pay their bills and overhead too. Remember, they are running a business, just like any other business that needs to stay afloat. A mechanic charges you parts AND labour, a lawyer charges you for their expertise which is knowledge-related. If you have a good relationship with lawyer, you can ask for deferred payments, or a promise to pay at a later time, etc.. Sometimes you can ask a question here or there as a one-off and they won't charge you.....those are the nice ones.

                      I was fortunate to find an extremely nice lawyer who genuinely cared. Previous to this lawyer, I had an terrible bloodsucking lawyer. I told the firm that I didn't have much money and needed my matter resolved as cost-effective as possible, so they assigned a junior lawyer. Junior lawyer kept meeting with Senior lawyer to discuss my file. Guess who kept getting charged $650/hr for meetings between a junior and senior lawyer?
                      $650 an hour is just plain obscene IMHO.
                      $300 an hour is too.
                      The very best mechanics charge $100 an hour.
                      The very best plumber or electrician similar. And they are expert adn very efficient and honest.
                      I don't care how much experience you have.
                      You better be guaranteeing results and be extremely efficient if you are that good. Ya right.
                      Go ahead and charge corporations those rates. But families?
                      Disgusting.
                      No wonder the courts are full of self represented parents.

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                      • #12
                        $650/hr is fine if it takes proportionally less time to do the task as someone at $200/hr charges. You can't measure value on price alone. However, many lawyers charge purely based on years of experience, which has some but not perfect correlation to value received by client. This is where the argument runs into issues. But, saying $650/hr is too high in all circumstances isn't a complete or fair argument. $9,000/hr might be reasonable for 1 hour of work that it will take anyone else 500 hours to do the same (an unlikely example, but offered to emphasize the point).

                        Mechanics are not a good comparison, the years of education and ongoing CPD / insurance requirements are different. Also, it seems possible to run a garage based on $100/hr fees. A family lawyer cannot run an effective office if everyone pays $100/hr, not without cutting deep corners elsewhere. I've worked against such firms.. you do not want to hire such firms.

                        Unfortunately, there is informational asymmetry in the market where people who hire lawyers do not have the skills and knowledge to discern good from bad. Even suggestions found on this forum are lacking. Online reviews are either written by angry opposing parties (in which case they skew negative) or written by the law firms themselves (in which they skew positive). Court decisions are helpful, but 'win/loss' isn't the measure, as the facts vary and you have no idea how (un)reasonable the client was in their demands. I find most people can't read court decisions to determine a lawyer's value (unless the Judge says something devastating like 'Counsel X was ill-prepared for trial every day and I've referred her name to the Law Society for discipline... which is very rare).

                        The only solution to the above I see is genuine but controlled peer reviews, but there's no motivation among the legal profession (or most professions) to do this.

                        The biggest issue isn't the lawyers, it's the broken system. I'd rather charge $100/hr and put it in my pocket than $300/hr and pay expenses, but that's not how the world works. I'd prefer conflict I can resolve in a day rather than two years, but that also isn't how things work.
                        Last edited by Kinso; 03-25-2020, 12:09 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                          $650 an hour is just plain obscene IMHO.
                          Sorry, just to chime in here. It is not 1 lawyer for $650/hour.

                          It was recommended I use a junior lawyer due to limited funds. Junior lawyer was $250/hr. The Junior Lawyer kept meeting with a Senior Lawyer in their office for guidance/advice on how to work my file, who was $400 per hour. Then I would get charged $650/hour for the meeting they had. Happened on a # of occasions till retainer ran dry.

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                          • #14
                            Please read this post: https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=23077

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