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  • #46
    If one thinks about it. If you only put in affidavits that which you can corroborate (prove) it would trim the whole legal matter down to bare bones. Chances are if you can't prove something then it is not worth mentioning anyhow.

    Perhaps this simple rule should be incorporated ? Then if lawyers accept affidavits from clients which client has not corroborated the lawyer could be held responsible.

    Would sure trim the fat and nonsense from most family law cases IMO. Definitely stop the nonsense with false accusations.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
      Community,

      several of you make execellent point regarding the (in)sufficiency of established statute.

      What I believe needs to change is the predatory billing behavior that so many people fall prey to.

      Some of you may say "well if your dumb enough to let it happen... tough bananas...".

      I don't agree. Lawyers look at financials then establish what they can "juice" the entire matter for. I know this for a fact.

      Not all of us are inclined (I am) to scrutinize and challenge a lawyer's billing.

      Aside from how things are supposed to work, there is no reasonable consumer protection to prevent "gaming" by lawyers.

      The ones I've met (and had assessed) didn't give two sh*ts about me or my kids.... only $$$$.

      This is the problem... the system has to reign these glutinous b*st*rds in.

      PND
      And I agree 700%.

      My situation spun out of control *very* quickly and it soon became the norm to budget $2K+ a month for "legal fees". If I could do it all over again I would invest the time and energy into self-reping....

      At the time I had just started a new and *very* demanding job, that (un)fortunately paid very well. I could not afford the time or energy to handle all the crud that was being thrown at me... so I "trusted" the legal system as deep down I knew I was right. Boy was I ever wrong. I could write a book.

      She is loaded (through inheritances), and had, uhhh.. *lots* of free time.

      Lawyers went to town.

      At the end I got royally screwed in mediation, as it simply had to end (for the kids if nothing else). Converting to self-rep at that stage would have put my job at risk.

      I have a 6 page white paper I put together at the end showing very clearly how only the lawyers won... and boy did they ever win.

      Comment


      • #48
        Even after all I've been through, I have to say that ONDaddy does have a point here.

        What irk's me most about some lawyers (not all), are their inability to follow the rules of professional conduct found here: Rules of Professional Conduct | The Law Society of Upper Canada

        Even if they are representing a high conflict party, they still have a duty to encourage settlement, not inflame matters, not engage in delays, avoid perjury themselves, etc.

        If "some" lawyers put a stop to being so grimey, the system would improve markedly.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by OntarioDaddy View Post
          They know the risk and pricing going in...
          Absolutely, 100% false. Your example just provides more fodder for the case that lawyers should be barred completely from family law.

          We are not criminals, yet are treated as such (and worse than that as perjury is accepted and even encouraged in family "law").

          My lawyer told me "simple cases are $2-3,000... but some of his more complex, contentious cases could be up to $10-15,000... and I shopped around as best I could.

          Based on that, how does one prepare for the "risk" and final bill that was 5 times that.

          If somebody went through 6 divorces and had the same story every time, I'd buy your vacuum cleaner salesman story... but this is a complex situation.. at an emotionally taxing time.. and I was up to my eyeballs in a new job. I "thought" I did my research, and trusted the system, much the same way I "trust" doctors, teachers and accountants.

          Given 20/20 hindsight, I can write a book on how the last thing on my lawyers mind was "what is the best for this person and his children".

          You've obviously never experienced a "High Conflict Person" with money... and the raw damage they can do.

          Comment


          • #50
            When my partner was getting divorced his ex said they should do mediation to avoid the high costs of lawyers. At the mediation table his ex said he gets nothing and refused to budge and left the room. The mediator wished him luck in court. In court his ex argued with the judge and the judge told her (in so many words) to sit her ass down or they would give my partner more. Since the divorce she has demanded more and more and my partner could have gone to court to stop it but he wasnt about to incur $5-10g in legal bills. Even his lawyer (at $300 an hour) told him to pick his battles. His ex is still unreasonable but has no money for court or lawyers. My partners lawyer told us if she was his client he would fire her for being stupid "her antics would pay my kids school costs but I have to be responsible and behave according to rules I agreed to in my profession."

            It works both ways: lawyers should adhere to their code of conduct but people need to be reasonable. Im sure that if your ex didnt have inheritance at her disposal your court filings would be slim and the unreasonable behaviour limited to some screamy emails here and there.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by OntarioDaddy View Post
              So you understood the risk and pricing, including how big a jump the pricing can go up depending on the complexity. I still say the blame would fall more on you. There are definitely bad lawyers out there, but better education would have solved your issue.
              I accept full responsibility for my actions... but I stand by my statements that the legal profession has no place in Family "Law". Given the circumstances at the time, I really don't know what else I could do.

              She (and her very high priced lawyer) were pounding me with disclosure after disclosure request... twisting, bending, making false accusations left, right and centre. We had written agreements which she would repeatedly ignore. There are 2 full bankers boxes with all the papers. My continuing record is 4 inches thick.

              For what it's worth, I did nothing wrong... she is mega-high conflict, and I was simply playing defence the entire time. I made reasonable offer after reasonable offer... all of which were rebuffed without a counter. I mistakenly assumed that since truth, honesty and "justice" was on my side, that would suffice in the long run. Boy was I wrong.

              I figured *finally* we're at a settlement conference with a top end judge, and this should put this to rest once and for all. As soon as the judge started telling her things she didn't want to hear, she walked out the door (about 1/2 an hour). When her lawyer gleefully sent a letter stating "onward to trial", at that moment I lost every last molecule of respect for those in the legal profession.

              There was simply no reason whatsoever that her lawyer could not have sat her down and said, "look, the guy is being reasonable and trying to settle this.... so IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILDREN.. lets just do that". Instead *kaching*... 8 more months of billing.

              Sure... education is the answer... but I was in the beginnings of a major new job, and suddenly a couple of burly guys show up in a pickup truck and serve me papers with all sorts of immediate deadlines....

              I tried... I learned... and if I had to do it all over again I would immediately start by self repping...

              Please tell me (and others) how to educate themselves in such a situation.

              and for those reading... please consider this an "Education" as to what could happen if you talk to a lawyer. It's really not that hard to do yourself.

              Comment


              • #52
                Here is a recent case from Ontario which some may find interesting:

                https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...5onsc6683.html

                "[8] On the one hand, it can be argued that family law disputes for the most part are so fraught with emotion that we should patiently focus on the issues without regard to the clear violations of the rules. On the other hand, lawyers must take some responsibility and resist the temptation to be the hired gun whose mandate is to destroy the reputation (if not all the worldly goods) of the opposite party. I accept that a lawyer who adopts this principled legal approach may have an unhappy client. However the alternative demeans our legal institutions and those who tirelessly work to make it the backbone of our democratic society. Pleadings are rarely attacked in family law matters. More care should be taken to assure that the pleadings comply with the rules." (Honourable Justice Timothy Ray)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Yes Yes Justice Timothy Ray. That's what Im saying. Some lawyers just have to act human. Dehumanizing and attacking OP, straying from ethics and rules of conduct need to stop. There are children and families involved here who will be affected the rest of their lives by how these lawyers conduct themselves.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by OntarioDaddy View Post
                    It's hard for me to find fault in the lawyers.

                    Everything is in your control on who you hire, what you do, and how much you spend. Some people feel they need an expensive lawyer in order to get better results. Others believe simply having a lawyer will guarantee a settlement or get them the results they want.

                    They know the risk and pricing going in, so I see it more as buyer's remorse. People are trying to sell us things everyday, and it's all in our control. I think the answer here is more in education. If someone complains about buying a new vacuum every week because the door salesman said to, then they need education not new vacuum sales laws.

                    Lawyers and fees should be covered in the MIP.
                    OD, Lawyers don't tell you this, and people make the mistake of trusting and deferring to their lawyer.

                    .

                    WE ARE BEING GAMED.
                    Last edited by plainNamedDad44; 10-31-2015, 03:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      A few decades ago (well more than a few) I had a summer job working for a friend's older brother who was a lawyer. I was the receptionist. I recall the divorce lawyer being absolutely gleeful when his distressed clients (notably mainly female) would call the office several times a day. Part of my job was to track "time and billings" for the telephone. In those days the phone company called back with the amount of time of the call. The more distressed the client the more money the lawyer made as even if the phone calls were only for a few minutes he billed for 15. These 'distress' calls added up significantly.

                      Fast-forward to today. Nothing much has changed. We now have email and texting and the lawyers are happily making money off of those communications as well (even if the lawyer's assistant handles the call/text/email).

                      How many people, when they retain a lawyer, ask for the "game plan?" How many times throughout the litigation history of their case do they again ask their lawyer "okay what is the plan of action after this upcoming conference?" I suspect not many. I think people are too enamoured by their lawyers. They think the lawyer is going to do what is in their best interests. Not exactly. The lawyer will do what he/she does to take full advantage of billable hours. If you make lots of money you can bet that your lawyer is going to suggest a merry-go-round of 4-way meetings, mediation, case conferences and, of course, mega letter writing.

                      How many people ask their lawyer about billings for their "research time" or time other members of their firms work on your file? It's really a license to print money UNLESS you get control of your situation by simply asking LOTS OF QUESTIONS.

                      How many people spend tens of thousands of dollars at the start of their litigation only to find that, as things go along and when their bank accounts are in overdraft, that their lawyers either tell them to borrow money from a family member or friend? How many people find that once the bank account has dwindled that the lawyer tells you that the other side has miraculously made a decent offer to settle?

                      Don't ever forget that your lawyer and your ex's lawyers might be bitter enemies in the courtroom but buddies in the pub (they won't tell you this of course).

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        My lawyer charged me something like $20 to read a brief email I had sent him about having to reschedule an appointment. Any other industry and such things would be absorbed part of the cost of doing business. And you don't find out these shenanigans until you get an itemized bill, which they try not to provide until you've blown past your retainer.

                        I especially hated watching my lawyer two-finger typing stuff agonizingly slowly into his computer as I sat in his office.

                        It's like the opposite of being a real estate agent, where they ONLY make money when your home sells. And no matter how much work they put into it, if you decide not to sell after all, they make zero.

                        There needs to be a happy medium for BOTH professions.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                          My lawyer charged me something like $20 to read a brief email I had sent him about having to reschedule an appointment. Any other industry and such things would be absorbed part of the cost of doing business. And you don't find out these shenanigans until you get an itemized bill, which they try not to provide until you've blown past your retainer.

                          I especially hated watching my lawyer two-finger typing stuff agonizingly slowly into his computer as I sat in his office.

                          It's like the opposite of being a real estate agent, where they ONLY make money when your home sells. And no matter how much work they put into it, if you decide not to sell after all, they make zero.

                          There needs to be a happy medium for BOTH professions.
                          My ex-wife seems to send all our emails to her lawyer who charges her 30$ to read my emails - isn't that crazy?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I am at a loss as to why while there is much discussion, only 3 people have signed the petition?

                            Can someone please enlighten me?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by plainNamedDad44 View Post
                              I am at a loss as to why while there is much discussion, only 3 people have signed the petition?

                              Can someone please enlighten me?
                              Unfortunately, your petition is vague, poorly written, comes across as negative instead of constructive, and involves me giving my email address out to some hosting company who does who knows what with it.

                              Also, I don't believe online petitions accomplish a single thing. I don't believe petitions accomplish much, online or not, to be honest. In my job, I receive petitions on occasion, and we ignore them. Most of the people signing them have no idea what the issue even is.

                              I fully believe the system does need an overhaul. I just don't think this is the way to initiate it. You may as well just put a post on Facebook and boast about how many likes it got as an indication of support.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                We live in an individualistic, success-based society run by money. At birth we're taught to soak in knowledge, go to the best schools, get the best jobs and make as much money as humanly possible. Collectivist societies could teach us a thing or two about ethics, morals and "the right thing to do" .. these societies teach "family" and "togetherness" over money and success.

                                Are lawyers striving to make as much money as humanly possible? Of course they are ... just like the average joe is. Can't blame them for that .. it's what we're taught from birth.

                                In some countries CS is $200.00 no matter what job the parent has, what they have in the bank or what they "think" they deserve. So guess who's family court rooms are near empty? This is a money game for 90% of the litigants and the lawyer's know it.

                                I said it before...even if you "educate yourself", even if you question, analyze and study the rates, itemized lists, etc ... you can still get a HC lawyer who inflames situations, does not encourage settlement, avoids the primary objectives of family law, delays matters, etc ... for more $$ of course.

                                The trick, like all areas of law .. is to be able to document the lawyer's wrong-doing, have facts to back up your claims, and to know your stuff.

                                For instance, I have e-mails, letters and other great doc's and I've referred to the Rules of Professional Conduct Rules of Professional Conduct | The Law Society of Upper Canada to illustrate (with facts), each point the opposing lawyer in my case was not able to meet.

                                Will it go anywhere? If there's any justice out there I believe it will. Those rules of professional conduct must be there for a reason. Using those to expose individual lawyers may be much more effective than a petition. Having said that, I don't blame PND for "trying" something, it's more than most of us do.

                                Comment

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