advice for an acquaintance

[SRT]

Couple is now separated for over 2 years after 10 years together (both 2nd marriage). A marriage agreement was in place that removed the future entitlement to each others prior assets including properties and pensions. Husband removes household co-assets - furniture and appliances (1 year old and paid for) along with vehicle #1 that is paid for. The wife is left with vehicle #2 that the husband wants signed over to him (both vehicles have shared title). He feels that he is entitled to all belongings because he was the main purchaser, but he did enjoy co-habitating at the wife's house enjoying all of the utilities etc. without contributing to the mortgage or expenses. Vehicle #2 still has a lien against it as homeline credit was used against the husband's properties.

Rough calculations with proper evaluation would show within a few thousand (benefit to him) that vehicle #1 and household items = vehicle #2 to her.
There has been no offer to settle or communication so this is going to trial in a few weeks. Her lawyer said to let him have it all, but the wife is now retired and on a fixed income so having to replace items makes it harder.

Any possibility of the judge forcing the sale of vehicles or does anyone have a sense of what the outcome might be?

[dinkyface]

duplicate post removed

[dinkyface]

They are most likely not going to trial over this - probably just a conference is upcoming. Which means the judge cannot force anything.

I'd guess that household contents rarely come to more than $10,000 (kijiji values) - and her 50% of that corresponds to 15-20 lawyer hours, which can EASILY be spent on this with no result.

I'm curious - he moved into HER house, yet ALL BELONGINGS in the house he was main purchaser for? Perhaps he only took SOME of the household contents? So now she's only talking about half of $5000?

[Tayken]

I'd guess that household contents rarely come to more than $10,000 (kijiji values) - and her 50% of that corresponds to 15-20 lawyer hours, which can EASILY be spent on this with no result.

^^^^ agreed.

Fighting over depreciating assets is not a good use of (a) the court's time and (b) a lawyer's time.

Lawyers cost $260 an hour. Even if your "friend" OP goes in "unrepresented" the other party may come in with a lawyer... Your friend could have costs ordered against them for being unreasonable.

Penny wise... pound foolish.

[SRT]

Sorry here is some more info.

They lived in her house and he had his house and apartments that were rented out. He claimed to being the major purchaser but there were items that she had purchased (even before marriage), they co-purchased together and even gifts that were given (being her property) that he had removed, which is included in the household items. Fair value for this property is around $8,000.

The lien against vehicle #2 on the husbands line of credit is still at the original purchase price as it was never paid down over $20,000. The total of all co-owned property is in the $25 - $30,0000 range. Half of that is $12.5 to $15,000. I know the general saying is that when you are within $10g there is no use fighting, but sometimes people become stubborn wanting what is legally theirs, especially when they get older.

[Tayken]

Fair value for this property is around $8,000.

Penny wise... Pound foolish...

1 day to hear a motion + prep is about 22.5 hours of legal billable time. At $260 an hour +HST to get the matter resolved is going to cost "your friend" about 6,356.25.

So, if it is $8,000 only $4,000 worth of furniture to "your friend".

$4,000 - $6,356.25 = $-2,356.25

So, your friend will be in the hole -2,356.25. <-- That could buy your friend a lot of used stuff. Do you get what we are all trying to explain.

The cars are useless too and not worth it... Same formula.

[SRT]

^^^^ agreed.

Fighting over depreciating assets is not a good use of (a) the court's time and (b) a lawyer's time.

Lawyers cost $260 an hour. Even if your "friend" OP goes in "unrepresented" the other party may come in with a lawyer... Your friend could have costs ordered against them for being unreasonable.

Penny wise... pound foolish.

I here you. My legal bills were high, but when it came down to fighting for my child I could not and would not put a price cap on it. The equalization just fell into place after all of the unnecessary bs ended.

Thanks for all of the input. Outside opinions sometimes help with the thought process, and I will be passing it on.

[DowntroddenDad]

My impression is that after a long time of living together, prenups loose some of their value. The longer they stay together the less important they become.

I would suggest they start by thinking about everything as 50/50, and work out any exceptions based on unusual circustances.

And Tayken, lawyers must be cheaper in Ottawa, around here $400 an hour is the going rate. At that rate, it isn't worth fighting. I gave up about $5000, it wasn't worth going to court over.

[Tayken]

I here you. My legal bills were high, but when it came down to fighting for my child I could not and would not put a price cap on it. The equalization just fell into place after all of the unnecessary bs ended.

Agreed. Custody and access matters are very different than "property" issues. that is why the court generally brings custody and access matters to resolution first when it comes on application to the court.

[Tayken]

My impression is that after a long time of living together, prenups loose some of their value. The longer they stay together the less important they become.

I would suggest they start by thinking about everything as 50/50, and work out any exceptions based on unusual circustances.

And Tayken, lawyers must be cheaper in Ottawa, around here $400 an hour is the going rate. At that rate, it isn't worth fighting. I gave up about $5000, it wasn't worth going to court over.

There are lawyers in Toronto whom will take $260 an hour. I use cost postings in case law to create the midpoint of what a family law lawyer costs I use here. $600 for a family law lawyer is the highest I have tracked in CanLII. There are probably bigger numbers out there.

The 260 seems to be reasonable and still produces scary numbers that make them contemplate the "penny wise... pound foolish..." warning.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[OrleansLawyer]

when it came down to fighting for my child I could not and would not put a price cap on it. The equalization just fell into place after all of the unnecessary bs ended.

Partial offers to settle to address custody and access can do wonderful things for the financial side of the case.

lawyers must be cheaper in Ottawa, around here $400 an hour is the going rate.

It depends on the firm and its location (whether in or around Ottawa, or Toronto, or anywhere else).

There are downtown firms (in Ottawa) where paralegals are billing $225 an hour, whereas lawyers outside the downtown core might bill less then that with 5-10 years experience. There are lawyers outside the downtown core that specialize in family but bill $150 (or less) per hour.