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  • #16
    If I had a dollar for all the horrible things my husbands ex said to him it would cover at least a few hours of his lawyers time.

    I can understand the desire to stand up for yourself and defend your actions. The problem is you are dealing with someone who will never change and will never stop. In effect it is a losing battle. The moment you stop letting it get to you the better off you will be.

    Plus when you tell someone to communicate in an alternative format or ignore them completely when they are making as ask, you give them reason to make a decision without consultation.

    Read the communication, take out the ask and respond only to that.

    For instance:

    You are an abusive jerk. You ruined my life. Everyone else agrees you are awful. I hate you so much it hurts. The kids want to take skating lessons at $500 a season of which your share is $200. I hope you dying in a fiery crash. You are ugly and smell bad. You are worthless and deserve nothing but misery and unhappiness.

    Your response is: I agree to skating with the caveat being you sending me full details and the cost does not exceed $200 for the year. Thank you.

    Believe it or not it takes the wind out of their sails and they tend to lose allies as they end up burning others around them!!

    Comment


    • #17
      Janus and I used to disagree. But, I think it was more of a style issue. I am too "soft" in my approach which I don't think he likes. But, we generally operate on the same theories.

      This is a rare occasion where I will punch up his wise words.

      Originally posted by Janus View Post
      ... but you likely have a low bar for what you consider to be "abusive".
      "Low bar" is a soft way of putting it. I would say the bar is so low that it is 6 feet under ground.

      Take a look at this thread: https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=16809

      The difficulty with the term “abuse”, as it is used in affidavits filed in family law cases, is that it is used subjectively. It is an emotionally coloured term. It is not limited to describing physical violence but may be also be used to describe a range of conflicts including arguments, differences of opinion or values, or hurt feelings.
      I am of the opinion that Abba is interpreting "hurt feelings" as "abuse" as this judge points out. Abba, you seem to be a wise poster... Not throwing you under the bus but really consider how you interpret what is "abusive".

      Originally posted by Janus View Post
      When your ex sends you an email or a text that you consider to be inappropriate, you demand that she communicate with you by... posted letter.

      Honestly Abba, that's crazy. I have been on this forum (and other divorce forums) for many years and I have never heard of any parent demanding that a parent communicate by posted letter.
      Not since 1994... The last time anyone shopped at Eddy Bauer. This is really over-the-top!

      Originally posted by Janus View Post
      I think it is very possible that a judge would consider a situation where the only communication between parents was by snail mail to be completely and utterly broken. As the judge, I would either institute a parallel parenting custodial situation, or I would grant sole custody to one of the parents. Most probably the latter because even in parallel parenting some level of communication is required.
      If you dig on CanLII there is case law that supports Janus' theory. I believe it was Justice Quinn who did a whole rant about parents communicating by general post!

      Originally posted by Janus View Post
      I think that you might actually end up with an order for sole custody against you if you don't change.
      I agree Abba... You are maybe a bit too "divorce obsessed". You want the other parent to conduct them in a specific pattern. They won't nor will the court enforce them to do it in any kind of pattern.

      I strongly believe that LESS communication is better for children with parents in conflict unless the child has a long-term disease that needs extreme management. In most cases parents in high-conflict try to use the communications to gain an advantage improperly. Janus outlined the best way to handle the communication to avoid doing it wrong.

      A lot of professionals in education and the health care field are getting wise to the behaviour patterns of parents in conflict. A lot of doctors are booting parents out of their clinical encounters with children at around the age of 12. I have gotten a LOT of PMs from parents that this has happened to over the past 2-3 years now. Enough to say it is a strong trend. Children have a lot more power than parents realize. By 14 Abba your children will probably cut BOTH of you out of their personal communications with professionals and have every right to. One phone call to KidsHelpLine and they will be fully educated on how to do it. It is very sad when a child has to actually do this to stop their parent's from fighting over NOTHING.

      Communicate less... I saw a study where parents were given 50-50 and couldn't communicate. It was very interesting that after a year the parents changed significantly in their pattern of behaviour. Bad communications is a virus and some times you need to isolate parents into their own corners to eliminate the virus of bad communications.

      Janus: Trying to find the stupid paper... Google is not finding it and I forgot to put it in my database. Ugh. The sample in the study was really small... So its not really great but, gives some insight.

      Good Luck!
      Tayken

      Comment


      • #18
        Thank you for the feedback.
        I will not reply to the less constructive comments.
        Thank you for the compliment Tayken.

        The insistence on using letters came after a long history of abusive emails and texts. Long and yes verbally abusive. Not "hurt feelings". Extremely volatile.
        If you were privy to the evidence given you are both wise and experienced I am 100% positive you would not say I suffered from "hurt feelings" nor does my spouse.

        It was an effort to establish communication that was focussed only on the interests of the kids.
        And it was out of desperation. It was temporary. Email was used extensively otherwise and still is. I have adopted much of rockscan and other's advice years ago.

        Unless you know the entire story (there are many complicated facts including a seriously ill child) and you knew me personally it is hard to appreciate the whole case.

        The fact is communication supportive of co-parenting was made impossible. The other parent behaved as though they thought they had sole custody and sole decision making to the point they thought they were the sole parent.
        Endless interference with my parenting time.
        Endless incendiary communication.
        Endless breach of agreements.
        Refusal to use dispute resolution protocol.

        The most over zealous lawyer I have ever encountered and I have worked with many excellent litigators. Advised my ex that the entire separation agreement was voidable, but never made any attempt to follow through. So the client behaved on that advice as if there was no agreement and that she believed was the sole parent.

        Many times the lawyer advised client that she had decision making power that was clearly in breach of the agreement. Made intentionally misleading statements in court and was called on the carpet. Made incredible errors in financial calculations and was called out on that too.

        If you knew the facts you would be shocked.
        I was a respondent to an action that was noted to be the absolute last thing that was called for.

        Divorce obsessed? Really? Nothing could be further from the truth.

        I made over a dozen requests for resolution to the lawyer in writing over a three year period. Multiple requests for mediation. Requests for a parenting coordinator. I made multiple offers. I provided a revised agreement 3 years ago that would have resolved all issues. The other side had zero interest in anything but a trial and said so in writing. Never made a single offer other than in conference briefs and they were not severable and ludicrous.. Never replied to my offers. Not one good faith attempt to resolve their claims or to respond to counter claims. FRO finally denied all of their submitted claims for expenses that were not consented to in advance.

        And when this is over I will tell you about a truly incredible series of interactions that took place in the court hallway. The lawyer that I spoke to about it is a 30 year veteran in family law and his jaw is still on the floor. This on top of some of the dirtiest tricks I could imagine that I cannot yet divulge.

        I may not be a lawyer but this is not my first rodeo with complicated jurisprudence.

        So of course it is possible that I lose on the sole custody claim if the judge thinks it is in the children's interest. In my opening I allocuted to suspending email communication temporarily and my evidence and testimony supported that temporary decision. So did theirs frankly and that seemed not to be lost on the trial judge. I gave evidence of when effective communication had been accomplished contrasted with the incendiary examples. I gave many examples of refusal to consult, to seek approval, or to inform. None refuted. I gave testimony of how these repeated and continuous breaches had fuelled conflict and the many examples of how I mad good faith attempts to resolve all issues especially communication and most especially joint decisions.

        In closing I was emphatic that given the evidence granting sole custody would cut me out of the children's lives other than when they live with me as it would interpreted as granting status as de facto sole parent. Plus that would be lorded over me for eternity to the detriment of the children. Given a long history of not informing me as a joint parent in advance of many things (required in decision making clause) it is a certainty that there would be zero consultation and this was clearly not in the children's interests. We shall see. I argued that the agreement had been used as a sword and not as a shield by the other parent and her counsel and that sole custody would only make that worse. I implored the trial judge to rule on methods to enforce and to strengthen the agreement, to resolve the acrimony and to prevent future conflict instead of creating added conflict for the children.

        My draft order included parallel parenting using Our Family Wizard and the appointment of a Parenting Coordinator.

        I am not in this for me. I am in it for my kids. I did not claim sole custody as I believe both parents should be involved in decisions.

        And yes Tayken in a year or so the game changes. So why sue for sole custody? It is really incredible this ever made it to trial. Pretty much what the closing comments were from the bench. And what my very experienced therapist says, she is very respected in local family court.

        Divorce obsessed? Please. You could not be further from the truth sir.
        Last edited by Abba435; 04-27-2020, 01:34 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Janus View Post
          I think I have gathered enough information to judge, as you requested.

          First of all I would like to point out that you get very upset on this forum when a response is given that does not conform with your expectations. You do listen (I noticed that you never really referred to the hurt feelings of your new wife ever again) but you likely have a low bar for what you consider to be "abusive".

          When your ex sends you an email or a text that you consider to be inappropriate, you demand that she communicate with you by... posted letter.

          Honestly Abba, that's crazy. I have been on this forum (and other divorce forums) for many years and I have never heard of any parent demanding that a parent communicate by posted letter.

          I think it is very possible that a judge would consider a situation where the only communication between parents was by snail mail to be completely and utterly broken. As the judge, I would either institute a parallel parenting custodial situation, or I would grant sole custody to one of the parents. Most probably the latter because even in parallel parenting some level of communication is required.

          Abba, my ex used to say terrible things to me all the time by email. I categorized it, saved it, and responded if necessary. Her words could only hurt her. They had no effect on me, why would they? You need to allow your ex to send you emails... and then simply ignore most of them. If you cannot handle that then get a trusted friend to only forward you the ones that matter.

          I think that you might actually end up with an order for sole custody against you if you don't change.
          Please read my post above and if you wish comment.
          You are focussed on this whole hurt feelings thing.
          That is not the case, not at all.
          I appreciate your experience and advice despite disagreeing with your take on that point.
          Stay safe.
          Last edited by Abba435; 04-27-2020, 01:33 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
            Please read my post above and if you wish comment.
            You are focussed on this whole hurt feelings thing.
            That is not the case, not at all.
            I appreciate your experience and advice despite disagreeing with your take on that point.
            Stay safe.
            Here's the thing- "verbal abusive" and abusive language happens when you're in a position to be abused. If you're no longer in a relationship with the other person and sharing the same household- then it just means you're interacting with an idiot, not necessarily that you're being "abused". I'm not trying to downplay how much this can affect your day or your peace or well-being. I know it's hard to co-parent with someone like this. Most of us on here do- and the other parent would probably say the same thing about us.

            But the whole mail communication thing does sound nutty.

            Comment


            • #21
              I have to share a hilarious statement I once heard. I was a landlord and had taken a tenant to court to pay rent. The tenant had refused to pay the original order and I garnished wages. They took me back to court and claimed I was harassing them and they felt abused. The adjudicator asked the tenant what I had done and tenant responded that I sent multiple messages about police being called by the building managers, emails about the paperwork, deliveries of legal documents etc.

              Adjudicator: your definition of harassment is very different from mine.

              One mans abuse if another man’s crazy ex wife!!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                I have to share a hilarious statement I once heard. I was a landlord and had taken a tenant to court to pay rent. The tenant had refused to pay the original order and I garnished wages. They took me back to court and claimed I was harassing them and they felt abused. The adjudicator asked the tenant what I had done and tenant responded that I sent multiple messages about police being called by the building managers, emails about the paperwork, deliveries of legal documents etc.

                Adjudicator: your definition of harassment is very different from mine.

                One mans abuse if another man’s crazy ex wife!!
                Were his feelings hurt?
                And do you think that is what I am all about?
                Be gentle

                Comment


                • #23
                  Key word
                  Temporary
                  And it is was supported by a lawyer and a therapist

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                    Were his feelings hurt?
                    And do you think that is what I am all about?
                    Be gentle

                    I dont think their feelings were hurt. It was a pathological liar I was dealing with.

                    I’m just pointing out that what some may label one thing does not have the same label to others and I say most of this for those reading now and in the future. You may think your ex is one thing but inevitably they are simply difficult. Or perhaps you are the difficult one and your ex refusing to do what you want is legit.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                      I dont think their feelings were hurt. It was a pathological liar I was dealing with.

                      I’m just pointing out that what some may label one thing does not have the same label to others and I say most of this for those reading now and in the future. You may think your ex is one thing but inevitably they are simply difficult. Or perhaps you are the difficult one and your ex refusing to do what you want is legit.
                      Replace "abusive" with "recalcitrant in the extreme"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Abba435 View Post
                        You are focussed on this whole hurt feelings thing.
                        No, I just meant that you clearly find my postings towards you to be intolerable, when they really are not that bad at all. It leads me to believe that you probably have a thin skin when it comes to written messaging.

                        Stay safe.
                        I notice you only wish me safety. I'm flattered.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                          Janus and I used to disagree. But, I think it was more of a style issue. I am too "soft" in my approach which I don't think he likes. But, we generally operate on the same theories.
                          Yeah, we did! That was a while ago.

                          I remember when I started my divorce: the world was very black and white. I was right and my ex was wrong. Most people come here like that. They will twist responses to fit their warped view. I like to make sure that I'm not misunderstood.

                          Abba likes to be treated with kid gloves and is very passive aggressive when he is annoyed. Safe to say he's not one of my biggest fans.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Janus View Post
                            Yeah, we did! That was a while ago.

                            I remember when I started my divorce: the world was very black and white. I was right and my ex was wrong. Most people come here like that. They will twist responses to fit their warped view. I like to make sure that I'm not misunderstood.

                            Abba likes to be treated with kid gloves and is very passive aggressive when he is annoyed. Safe to say he's not one of my biggest fans.
                            Janus while you are astute you are extremely judgemental
                            No need for me to take you on
                            Your knowledge is welcome
                            Your incorrect labels are useless

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Janus View Post
                              No, I just meant that you clearly find my postings towards you to be intolerable, when they really are not that bad at all. It leads me to believe that you probably have a thin skin when it comes to written messaging.



                              I notice you only wish me safety. I'm flattered.
                              Only one other person in my rather long life has managed to make fallacious statements about me and my intentions and at the same time self assess as always right. I wonder if you can guess.
                              I am in the habit of correcting false statements, assertions and assumptions.
                              I do not find you intolerable.
                              I do find you to be arrogant, intentionally insulting, sarcastic, judgemental and high handed.
                              I am not thin skinned.
                              I just don't accept nonsense.
                              I am highly empathetic where you are not.
                              Unless you are a psychologist and have interviewed me you have no standing to throw around terms like passive aggressive. You have also applied it incorrectly.
                              I suggest you consider seeking therapy for this very condition yourself.
                              Let's leave it right here.
                              When you have a legal opinion on a legal forum I will welcome it as despite the attitude you seem to be intelligent and experienced. I have noted this appreciation frequently.
                              When it is personal please do not waste the keystrokes. Not welcome, not helpful and a waste of your and my time.
                              I do sincerely hope you and yours stay safe during this tragic pandemic.
                              Take care.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Abba, you have actually proven Janus’ argument by continuing to respond to him.

                                Rule of thumb: you don’t need to attend every argument you are invited to.

                                You disagree with his statements, you have said that repeatedly, end the comments.

                                Comment

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