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  • Not entitled to vacation because I have sole custody?

    After a very long, drawn out custody battle, which included an investigation with the OCL and a clinical assist, sole custody was awarded to me. He has access EOW and every Wednesday for dinner. He self-represented, so when negotiating the access schedule, it was him, my lawyer and the children's lawyer.

    For summer vacation, it really only specifies that the access parent is entitled to three weeks vacation, and his request must be given by a certain date. He gave me his dates by the proper time, and even though he was going against the current order in his request, I allowed it, because I had no reason not to, and thought I should try and be accommodating.

    After he chose weeks he wanted, I emailed him with the weeks I wanted to take with my kids. He never emailed back, so I booked a little getaway with my kids. The afternoon before we were to leave, he emailed me back (this was 5 weeks after my vacation request was sent). He said the agreement only specifies that HE gets vacation time, but nowhere does it specify that I have any. He claims that I get a week of uninterrupted time with them every other week from Wednesday to Wednesday and that's when I should be planning my vacation with the kids.

    Well, I chose Monday to Thursday for our vacation, because I am tight on money, and it was cheaper than staying over a weekend. I was really upset, because technically, it doesn't say I am entitled to vacation. The kids were so excited about our holiday, and I didn't want to tell them we couldn't go. I emailed him and said he had over a month to respond, and he was choosing the day before on purpose and went with my kids.

    I'm going back to court to get my order clarified, but I was wondering...is this norm? Does a sole custodial parent not get specified vacation blocks in the summer, because we have the kids on a day to day basis? Will I never be entitled to more than one week at a time of vacation with them?

  • #2
    wow....after all that fighting...I feel sorry for the ex for some reason...why not go back to court and fight for not having custody for a week or two so you can have some "me" time

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MrToronto View Post
      wow....after all that fighting...I feel sorry for the ex for some reason...why not go back to court and fight for not having custody for a week or two so you can have some "me" time
      not helpful at all. If you really read the post you can see that she already gets 3 weeks of me time when the father has his summer vacation tme with them.

      To the OP the devil is always in the details. Your time you want to go on vacation takes away one of his wednesday visits. Have you thought about sweetening the pot and offer him another full weekend to make up that one day? I can understand where he is coming from, he got the EOW screwjob and is fighting for his time to see them. Your best bet is to go when it doesnt interfer with his access. Yes it may be a bit more expensive for you but if you cannot afford it then maybe you shouldnt go. Lots of little day trips are nice.

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      • #4
        I'd just like to clarify that the poor the ex lost custody, because he's abusive towards his children, and was arrogant enough not to even hide his behaviour during his home observation. He was also forced to take a parenting course so he could learn that calling your children names and physically shoving them around, isn't how a parent should discipline. Yup, poor guy.

        I actually was going to offer make up time, until he threatened to drag me into court for contempt. I wasn't feeling quite as generous after that email. Like I said, I am going to be getting the order clarified, but I'd never heard of a parent never getting a block of vacation time with their kids. Thanks for your suggestions "standing on the sidelines".

        On a side note, perhaps if he ever turns over a new leaf (both the children's lawyer and social worker said they can't see him ever changing....both of the professionals were men, btw), I can enjoy that "me" time.

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        • #5
          It is pretty standard. My original agreement was the same. I noticed it and was able to work out a new agreement with my ex to provide that she is entitled to same vacation as me. It costs me a couple mid-weeks with my kiddo.

          Technically, he is right. You have a period from Wednesday to Wednesday every other week where you have the children. He only has limited time with the kids to begin with, and taking away any time when you could otherwise plan around it, wouldn't be in the kids best interests.

          I am sorry he isn't agreeable here. You should offer make-up time to mitigate your mistake here, because, yes you are at fault. You planned activities for the children during your ex's parenting time. Your understanding of the agreement notwithstanding. The early email will help a little as it likely will show you tried to advise him. But did you follow up when he didn't respond to confirm? Or did you take his silence as consent?

          Anyway it sucks, but you would technically be found in the wrong here. The courts wouldn't be happy with his actions as he could've received makeup time and it is likely the activity would be found in the kids best interests. It sucks that the kids miss out because their parents didn't plan better, communicate, followup or be reasonable when there was a dispute.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by KMF View Post
            I'd just like to clarify that the poor the ex lost custody, because he's abusive towards his children, and was arrogant enough not to even hide his behaviour during his home observation. He was also forced to take a parenting course so he could learn that calling your children names and physically shoving them around, isn't how a parent should discipline. Yup, poor guy.
            Originally posted by KMF View Post
            On a side note, perhaps if he ever turns over a new leaf (both the children's lawyer and social worker said they can't see him ever changing....both of the professionals were men, btw), I can enjoy that "me" time.
            Not to be mean or anything but, I find the logic a bit hard to follow.

            1. You state that the other parent is "abusive towards his children".

            2. Clinicians (social workers) have told you that the prognoses s of the other parent's ability to "change" was they "can't see him ever changing".

            If this was the case and the other parent is "abusive towards his children" why would you want to have them spend two weeks with that person?

            If there is a clause that removes the "first right of refusal" you can leave the children with a trusted care giver and take a vacation. Why depend on the other parent whom you claim is "abusive towards his children" who registered clinicians state "can't see him ever changing"?

            I don't doubt the other parent is highly conflicted and this doesn't reflect on them but, there are other ways you can solve your problem. I would be surprised if after the observations (findings?) from the OCL report and social worker provided in your statements (if true) that they would allow "first right of refusal". This generally causes more fuel for the fire of conflict when dealing with a highly conflicted individual.

            Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

            Good Luck!
            Tayken

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            • #7
              Decisions like this are all about what is reasonable. If you offer to allow your ex 'make-up' time for his missed visitation with the kids, it would be unreasonable for him to not allow you to take the children on vacation. Also, by scheduling making up time in advance, you cannot be accused of denial of access, which is what you have done. Denial of access is not something you want to be seen as doing, especially when you have sole custody.

              Our judge felt that vacation was very important to a child. It's an opportunity for our kids to get away for the stress of their home life and relax, especially when dealing with a separation. My ex tried to stop us from going on vacation twice. The first time we got a court order, the second time we got help from a parenting co-ordinator but in both cases, we where able to go away with my son.

              I would not recommend go back to court and honestly I don't think it's needed. You have the control and make the decisions for your children, that's what sole custody means. I would try to come to an agreement for this type of thing but if an agreement can not be reached, the final decision is up to you in all matters. But remember, all your decisions can be used against you if they are not in the best interests of your children. The time your children have with your ex is just as important as the time they are with you.

              Going back to court opens the door for the order to be changed by both parties. It's best for everyone if you and your ex could come to agreement. Custody and access is something that will changes as your children get older, regardless of the court order. Having a good communication is important for your children.

              Keep the emotion out of it and don't engage. Holding on to what a social worker has to say about your ex's parenting is not helpful for you or your children. If your ex was not capable of looking after his children, he would have been restricted to supervised visitation.
              Last edited by Pharah; 08-02-2012, 10:12 AM.

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              • #8
                I agree with Pranah, especially the part of giving the makeup time up front. Normally, whenever my ex needs a switch, I try to arrange my makeup time prior to the day of the switch. That way I can't get screwed by giving her the day and then her changing her mind.

                It may also be necessary to offer more time then he is entitled to. If he normally gets a few hours during the midweek, offer a full Saturday or Sunday in exchange. Sweeting the offer never hurt anyone.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pharah View Post
                  Keep the emotion out of it and don't engage. Holding on to what a social worker has to say about your ex's parenting is not helpful for you or your children. If your ex was not capable of looking after his children, he would have been restricted to supervised visitation.
                  I agree. The animosity at some point has to end and the logical and rational decisions about what is best for the children involved need to come to surface. If one or both parents are unable to do this going to court will end up getting very ugly.

                  The other parent may be baiting you into a high conflict situation.

                  Brief
                  Informative
                  Factual
                  Friendly

                  Structure your communications on this model. As recommended keep the "emotion" out of the argument. Treat the other parent like a business partner in raising your children... Not an enemy. Some times business partners disagree but, they have a common goal in success.

                  Good Luck!
                  Tayken

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Tayken, I'm confused. I'm not wanting my ex to take my children so I can go on vacation. He was given three weeks vacation, as the children's lawyer was the one who basically came up with the access schedule. I want blocks of time so I can take my kids on vacation with me, not so I can go by myself. If I misread your post, I'm sorry, but it sounded like you misunderstood mine. I didn't have a choice in regards to my ex having my kids for blocks of time, so I negotiated it so he's not able to take more than one week at a time, until my daughter is a bit older. I worry about them the entire time they're gone, and wish they were having fun, so they'd look forward to going, and I could relax when they're with him.

                    I'm not actually going back to court for the vacation issue alone. I have to go back anyways, because he's refused to pay a penny of spousal since he was ordered to in February, and hasn't paid a penny in child support since May. I figured we'd just add the vacation issue to discuss.

                    I was supposed to have them for a second week this month, but I'll give that up until we get this settled. I'm not looking for a fight, since I'm very tired of fighting and would like to move on with my life. I just want something that fair and airtight, so he can't spend the rest of my kids younger years, looking for loopholes. I just think it's funny that the minute I do something that supposedly goes against the order, he's threatening to call the police, but he has no issues about being in breach of several orders.

                    Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm not looking to screw him over. I honestly thought that I was entitled to this time with my kids. It was the first time we'd been away since the divorce, and it was also the first time they went on a holiday where they didn't all end up crying from being yelled at, and got to do what they wanted to do. They were so happy, that I can't be sorry for going. It was worth it.

                    Hopefully all the outstanding issues will be resolved soon, and he'll figure out that seeing his kids happy, is far more important, than seeing me miserable.

                    Oh, and he did have suspended visitation for a while, but the kids were slowly integrated back into visits with him. I was telling the social worker that I'd hoped when his visits were suspended, he'd perhaps see the light and change his ways, but he thought it was unlikely. I just wish my ex would see the way he treats people, but he doesn't care.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KMF View Post
                      Tayken, I'm confused. I'm not wanting my ex to take my children so I can go on vacation. He was given three weeks vacation, as the children's lawyer was the one who basically came up with the access schedule. I want blocks of time so I can take my kids on vacation with me, not so I can go by myself.
                      What is your current access schedule with the other parent? EOW? 60-40? The reason you were not designated vacation (if the other parent is EOW) is that you should be scheduling your vacation on the weeks the child is residing with you generally. The OCL investigator should have explained this if it is an EOW schedule.

                      Originally posted by KMF View Post
                      What is your If I misread your post, I'm sorry, but it sounded like you misunderstood mine. I didn't have a choice in regards to my ex having my kids for blocks of time, so I negotiated it so he's not able to take more than one week at a time, until my daughter is a bit older.
                      Again, it depends specifically on the access schedule. Vacation time is set generally when it is 60-40 (equal vacation to be shared) or EOW generally (to allow the access parent extended time with the children).

                      Originally posted by KMF View Post
                      I worry about them the entire time they're gone, and wish they were having fun, so they'd look forward to going, and I could relax when they're with him.
                      Well, the OCL was involved and they made the recommendation. Another thing to consider is that a professional made the recommendation and their career is at stake if they were wrong and something does happen.

                      Originally posted by KMF View Post
                      I'm not actually going back to court for the vacation issue alone. I have to go back anyways, because he's refused to pay a penny of spousal since he was ordered to in February, and hasn't paid a penny in child support since May. I figured we'd just add the vacation issue to discuss.
                      File it with FRO and let them sort it out. Better than going back to court.

                      Originally posted by KMF View Post
                      I was supposed to have them for a second week this month, but I'll give that up until we get this settled. I'm not looking for a fight, since I'm very tired of fighting and would like to move on with my life.
                      Careful as court brings the worst out of people. Be prepared for a pile of allegations if the other parent is as high conflict as you are stating.

                      Originally posted by KMF View Post
                      I just want something that fair and airtight, so he can't spend the rest of my kids younger years, looking for loopholes. I just think it's funny that the minute I do something that supposedly goes against the order, he's threatening to call the police, but he has no issues about being in breach of several orders.
                      Don't look to contempt, a quasi criminal court motion, to resolve the problem. Contempt motions are a great way to restart the conflict. Also the burden of proof is not on a balance of probabilities... The evidence criteria is more like "beyond reasonable doubt". Furthermore, you will not be happy with the result of a contempt motion.

                      Consider your current access schedule prior to requesting anything from the court and if possible, discuss it with a professional. Possibly the OCL investigator...? You may be able to ask why you were not designated any vacation time.

                      Good Luck!
                      Tayken

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you so much for the information! I am actually going back to court, because FRO terminated deductions. They found the court order too confusing, so I'm going back to have it clarified for them. I wish I didn't have to, because I'm really tired of motions and conferences. I just really want this to be over. My kids to have my full attention, and not have their mom all stressed out over legal issues all the time. The problem with him self-representing, is that he just keeps dragging me back to court because it costs him almost nothing to do so.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KMF View Post
                          Thank you so much for the information! I am actually going back to court, because FRO terminated deductions. They found the court order too confusing, so I'm going back to have it clarified for them.
                          Now this is something interesting to investigate before the court. If a judge wrote the order as part of a motion or trial and the FRO is saying it was too confusing... Who pays the cost for that massive error?

                          Originally posted by KMF View Post
                          I wish I didn't have to, because I'm really tired of motions and conferences. I just really want this to be over.
                          I hate to break it to you but, unless you can get the other party to agree on consent to the order to be "FINAL" the only way you can get a "FINAL ORDER" is through trial. Motions and conferences are just steps to either (a) settle matters or (b) progress to trial. If the other party in the matter is as highly conflicted as you state, they can throw a wrench into a set of affidavits and you will find yourself on the emergency trial list and fast.

                          Originally posted by KMF View Post
                          My kids to have my full attention, and not have their mom all stressed out over legal issues all the time. The problem with him self-representing, is that he just keeps dragging me back to court because it costs him almost nothing to do so.
                          Your lawyer should be asking for costs to be assessed at every motion and the costs of conferences reserved and to be determined by the motions and or trial judge.

                          How many motions and conferences have you had to attend in the matter?

                          Also, when custody and access are concerned and you are dealing with a potentially high conflict individual... Nothing is ever "final". There is one particular contributor on this site who can attest to that...

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, the confusion in the order came from my ex, really. Two weeks after he was ordered to pay spousal support, he suddenly came down with a medical condition, preventing him from working more than half the week. My previous attorney gave him 60 days to prove that this was true. He was to show official pay stubs, bank account records, letters from his employer stating his hours of work and which aspects of his job he was unable to perform due to his condition. My ex consented to me conducting "due diligence". In the order, is said he was to pay X amount of spousal, and only if he could prove his work situation, would spousal be dropped to $0 per month, and child support to 40% of what he was currently paying.

                            He provided not one piece of proof, and is refusing to do so. FRO saw the second order, the clause about proving that he wasn't working and what the amounts would be reduced to, and said it was too confusing. I'm a lay person and the wording was quite clear, but they're saying since it didn't say that if he fails to provide proof the original order stands. So, they want a new order stating what they should be deducting now.

                            My new lawyer wrote to my ex and said "you failed to provide even one piece of proof that you aren't working full time, so we would like you to consent to a new order which clarifies to FRO that the original order stands". My ex is refusing to consent. He feels a doctor's note is good enough proof, so we're being forced to bring a motion for a new support order. My lawyer is seeking costs, since my ex never lived up to his part of the deal, yet still refuses to pay me anything.

                            Confusing and frustrating.

                            Comment

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