Urgent Motion - Child's mental health - disclosure to mom

[rockscan]

OP didn’t allow anything. Do you expect parents to go into their ex’s home dragging the kids out kicking and screaming? He did things the only way he could—took legal action with included an OCL report which takes months. His story is heart breaking as he refused to get into a battle with children. There is a really great book on this similar topic called A Family’s Heartbreak where the dad had full 50/50 but one child slowly developed a hatred for him. He would go to the house and try to force kid to spend time with him—enforcing his time—and kid would scream at him, hit him and tell him horribly heartbreaking things. Slowly kid simply stopped seeing him and his therapist worked with dad on not getting angry or forcing the child to do what he wanted.

My cousin had the same problem with his kids. Shared 50/50 and he tried to enforce it but when kids have one parent saying things and encouraging to “do what they feel” it breaks down. Thankfully for him his ex never had food and never did laundry so the kids came back.

[StillPaying]

So, no advice?

All great stories which prove my point. If you don't have a "good" relationship with your kids, it's easier for them to pull away. If you allow it, it's hard to get back. Not 100% alienation because parent could've been only a disneyland-parent if they wanted and not allow access to stop. The best way to prevent alienation is access!

We hear a lot about custodial parent doesn't have rules and kids don't want to follow our rules on the weekends. If rules are more important than access, then this is not alienation.

[rockscan]

Nope, even good relationships can be destroyed but we all know you are the greatest thing to hit Family Law so of course you don’t believe anything.

[StillPaying]

I believe maintaining access is the best counter to alienation. I also believe OP should focus there rather than what was mentioned. As an ultracrepidarian on every post, do you have anything to offer OP or any best counters to alienation?

[rockscan]

His case has gone past any suggestions I or anyone else can make. He needs to get someone involved who can remove his child from the situation. I made the suggestions that I feel could work in this moment without threatening his daughter’s life.

You can believe whatever you want, it doesn’t mean it is effective. There are amazing parents out there who fight for their time with their children and it just feeds the other parent to work in different ways of manipulating a child.

[Trix]

I will say that rockstan is on the nose.

This started prior to them being teenagers and has carried through. The list of what I could post regarding what I've heard my daughters say that speak to exactly his points would be endless.

There has been no comlaincency on my part. Even with younger children, lying or just picking them up from school makes them complicit in deception against the other parent. A parent to whom they have to return at some point and where they would have to answer for...well..their betrayal.

Make no mistake. A parent who can shove an 8 year olds stuffies into a bag saying 'if they're so great...go live with them', demands loyalty. Any suggestion that a child can walk away from that is overly simplistic. For the last five years every process, CAS, OCL Reunification was started and stopped.

This weekend, that same daughter (now almost 15) was in touch. Out with friends she asked if she could have some money for a movie. That she was out and with her friends was spectacular. I forwarded her the money.

Her mom found out and picked her up before she could get into the theater. Then radio silence.

Today my daughter apologized for not being able to have a dinner we had planned. She also apologized for not being in touch but her mom had taken her phone.

This isn't a girl who runs wjth a bad crowd or is off selling crack (I don't say that to be flippant as I've seen alot of that in my former line of work), this is a girl who dares have a relationship with anyone other than her 'mommy dearest'.

I have no energy to waste on being angry with 'the system', right now my daughter needs to be supported and the only thing I care about is knowing how to provide the information in such a way that it doesn't get to the mom.

I hope our daughter can get in touch with kids help phone as Taken suggested. If not, I need to provide her with another route, so I will be contacting CAS.

[Trix]

Right after I posted last I ended up on the phone with youngest from 3 to 4:30 am. She wouldn't wake up her sister or mom. Instead she went to the bathroom and sat on the floor while we texted.

Said she stares at the walls and tries to find a way not to hurt herself. She openly stated she had in the past, I respected that she didn't want to tell me how. She said that she just wants there not to be any life or any problems, but that she wouldn't hurt herself.

I again mentioned kids help phone, but she said she's never been drawn to call it.

Hasn't told anyone else not even her family doctor.

I suggested she come home today as I work from home. Was hoping to talk to her about speaking to a psych. Either way, I'm effectively cut off from access and mom seems to be more i a punitive stance than anythjng else. I'll be calling CAS, and at least ask some questions.

[rockscan]

Make no mistake. A parent who can shove an 8 year olds stuffies into a bag saying 'if they're so great...go live with them', demands loyalty. Any suggestion that a child can walk away from that is overly simplistic. For the last five years every process, CAS, OCL Reunification was started and stopped.

I have many stories like this. As a child it is hard to process. As an adult you see it as wrong but can understand and have power to fight it. If your parent says to you at 30, you are dead to me, your response is “ok whatever”. As a child you can’t understand and it is terrifying.

What’s funny is my parents continued their BS. The last day of court after my father handed everything to my mother, she told her lawyer she wanted to fight more. Her lawyer told her to find someone else. At my sibling’s wedding, she threw a fit because we were talking to our dad—who cared that it had been almost 30 years since they split. When she died she admitted she thought she was protecting us. Granted my father was terrible himself. He screwed me over financially in a real estate deal and he is lucky I still speak to him.

All this to say that an alienated parent can’t do what people think they can. When it involves psychological warfare and very fragile mental health of a child, you have to tread lightly.


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[Trix]

She has never been divorced, no kids, no knowledge and no experience. Yet she bombards every thread with posts bullying anyone who disagrees with her nonsense. Responding to every post is proof she speaks from misinformed guesses rather than anything useful.



So sad.... If a parent shouldn't fight for their kids, who should? Respectfully, you come off more as a scared babysitter than a parent. It's not the system, it was/is 100% in your control. Parent-Up!



You respected she didn't want to talk about it.... I would've called the police right away and got help, been there for my kid. You went to bed and then posted about it online.

~ To anyone worried about alienation, the best thing you can do is be a 50/50 parent and maintain your access!

Went to bed and posted about it online? Nice straw man.

Normally, I wouldn't pay attention to this. But I'll let you know that I was advised by ALL specialists involved that due to the emotional state of our daughters, even at the time of the mom's filing for custody, that removing the children from her cold turkey could have devastating effects due to the insecure attachment and enmeshment.

Fight? What do you know about fight? Be the second kicking and screaming banshee in our daughter's lives? How about ensuring that through it all they know I am a soft place to land. Maybe that's why my daughter's as open with me as she is. Did that consideration make it into your in-depth analysis.

Fight? Like reach out to experts in the field who speak internationally, like Nicholas Bala for guidance...multiple times?

Fight? Like hold back every feeling of anger and resentment so that you can say honestly to your child when they say they feel torn "It's ok, kiddo, have a good day, we'll find another time."

Fight? Call the police rather than stay on the phone with her for hours until she falls asleep. What, I didn't skate the line off calling? You don't think? How many Section 17 apprehensions have you been on. I'd have to review 15 years of duty-books to count the dozens I have. You've never been standing with a scared kid waiting for psychological emergency services to admit to hospital. Nearly 1/4 of all first hospitalizations for mental health will involve an officer and while we do the best we can to guide the child through the shock of it all, it's never the best way. That won't ever be you though, will it, so you're talking out of your a$$ when you say things like that.

But again, I'm sure you've given significant consideration to what that would do to my daughter's trust in having at least one parent she can be open and honest with. Who'll wipe off work and spend hours scouring the city for a service without a wait list.

But you know better than the experts. You're 'stronger' than the parent who has worked endlessly not to be the emotional responsive attack dog you'd suggest we be. Because you 'fight'.

Here's a story for you. As a police officer I once attended a call where a parent had requested police presence to pick up her kids, fearing the other parent would attempt to pick up the children.

I parked my cruiser out of sight and attempted to watch from a distance.

Well the other parent didn't show up, but when the kids got off the bus, it was apparent they didn't want to go with the parent who was there. I don't think it much matters what their motivation was. The older, a 12 year old actually tried to run from her mom. The mom tried to chase and they both tumbled to the ground.

What effect, exactly, do you think that 'fight' had on the children who had that experience in front of their friends in public. What do you think the lasting effect of that was.

Be the 'fighting' parent if you want, but you may want to replace that with 'warring' parent and rethink which path requires more strength.

Of course, your virtue-signaling doesn't have to run into the boots-on the ground truth of the impact your suggested actions would have on the children.

Enjoy your forum of convenience.

[rockscan]

Went to bed and posted about it online? Nice straw man.

Normally, I wouldn't pay attention to this. But I'll let you know that I was advised by ALL specialists involved that due to the emotional state of our daughters, even at the time of the mom's filing for custody, that removing the children from her cold turkey could have devastating effects due to the insecure attachment and enmeshment.

Fight? What do you know about fight? Be the second kicking and screaming banshee in our daughter's lives? How about ensuring that through it all they know I am a soft place to land. Maybe that's why my daughter's as open with me as she is. Did that consideration make it into your in-depth analysis.

Fight? Like reach out to experts in the field who speak internationally, like Nicholas Bala for guidance...multiple times?

Fight? Like hold back every feeling of anger and resentment so that you can say honestly to your child when they say they feel torn "It's ok, kiddo, have a good day, we'll find another time."

Fight? Call the police rather than stay on the phone with her for hours until she falls asleep. What, I didn't skate the line off calling? You don't think? How many Section 17 apprehensions have you been on. I'd have to review 15 years of duty-books to count the dozens I have. You've never been standing with a scared kid waiting for psychological emergency services to admit to hospital. Nearly 1/4 of all first hospitalizations for mental health will involve an officer and while we do the best we can to guide the child through the shock of it all, it's never the best way. That won't ever be you though, will it, so you're talking out of your a$$ when you say things like that.

But again, I'm sure you've given significant consideration to what that would do to my daughter's trust in having at least one parent she can be open and honest with. Who'll wipe off work and spend hours scouring the city for a service without a wait list.

But you know better than the experts. You're 'stronger' than the parent who has worked endlessly not to be the emotional responsive attack dog you'd suggest we be. Because you 'fight'.

Here's a story for you. As a police officer I once attended a call where a parent had requested police presence to pick up her kids, fearing the other parent would attempt to pick up the children.

I parked my cruiser out of sight and attempted to watch from a distance.

Well the other parent didn't show up, but when the kids got off the bus, it was apparent they didn't want to go with the parent who was there. I don't think it much matters what their motivation was. The older, a 12 year old actually tried to run from her mom. The mom tried to chase and they both tumbled to the ground.

What effect, exactly, do you think that 'fight' had on the children who had that experience in front of their friends in public. What do you think the lasting effect of that was.

Be the 'fighting' parent if you want, but you may want to replace that with 'warring' parent and rethink which path requires more strength.

Of course, your virtue-signaling doesn't have to run into the boots-on the ground truth of the impact your suggested actions would have on the children.

Enjoy your forum of convenience.

Ignore him, he’s been banned.

You are doing the right thing. Wish my dad had been like you when we were kids. Would have spared me A LOT of difficult bouts with depression and anxiety!

[Trix]

Thank you on all counts.

I'm sorry that you're experiences led to such difficulty. I appreciate, though, your comment. More than can be expressed with a sentence or two.

As a brief update, more cathartic for me than anything else, another midnight to 2 am call. This time, about some patterns of overthinking (I just listened) and then alot about a boy she likes (I just listened...and polished my rifle...JOKE).

Importantly, out of the thirteen calls and e-mails I sent out yesterday, one of them replied saying they had availability.

So, at 1:30am, over text, and letting her know I much rather have been providing her with the information in person (which rarely seems to happen), I let her know that I had found someone who she might consider speaking to. I just let her know that she might do well with a space all her own, where nobody's reporting back to anyone or writing letters or mom and dad are popping in or out...or....or.....Just a space for her.

There was a four minute pause in texting, then she responded saying she was still thinking about it. So I forwarded her the worker's link which has an extensive bio and suggested that she could look it over at her leisure. Then it was on to the boy (rifle...JOKE).

In the background during the day, mom refused to let me know who she'd reached out to find support, or if she had. That she and our other daughter were working on getting our youngest 'ready' to speak to someone. So still a very precarious position in terms of being able to let her know that I've found resources and provided one to our resource (as I type this, I see an e-mail pop in from another organization in the city).

Finally, put a call in to CAS, in the end, if our youngest can start moving forward with professional support, but mom decides to throw a wrench in the cogs because of her need to be the driving force behind anything in our daughter's lives, I'll some sort of third party to intervene.

To end on a positive note, at 2am I forwarded my daughter a meditation from spotify I though she might like, we both use them to try and sleep sometimes. I got one message saying she didn't think she'd be sleeping again. Then we plugged in....then radio silence.

perfect.

[rockscan]

Has she ever talked about living with you? Is that something she could do now that she’s old enough?

It really is a terrible situation and I wish I had an answer. I give you all the support I can muster electronically!!

[LMum]

Just a comment here from reading this thread... @rockscan you offer such valid and supportive advice (not just this thread either). @Trix your a great dad !!

[Trix]

I've popped on and about for years, and rockstan, you really do. I also think it's great that you offer thoughts where you can, but also don't try to overstep and pretend to have solutions.

LMum, I truly appreciate that. It really does mean alot.

[rockscan]

Just a comment here from reading this thread... @rockscan you offer such valid and supportive advice (not just this thread either). @Trix your a great dad !!

Thanks. I’m not a lawyer nor am I a total expert but I also realize that a lot of people get blinded by anger, resentment and hurt and tend to make knee jerk reactions as a result. I try to make comments that reduce that emotion and move to a more thoughtful and smart action.

I’m also a child of divorce, raised in an alienating environment with abusive parents. I have experience in the impacts of divorce for kids and try to remind people of this.

It bothers me when people have success in court and believe their success applies to all cases and get arrogant and obnoxious towards others when they are hurting.