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Divorce Act insight: no longer "child of the marriage"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
    Post secondary is an important consideration for him whether he plays or not. Professional sports is a short career, so he should ideally have education to pursue a career after hockey. If he gets injured, he's suddenly out of a hockey career so this is an 'and' strategy rather than an 'or' strategy.

    Yes but if his mother and step father are encouraging him and the history of alienation is still there, dad has little say. Even when its the right decision!

    Comment


    • #17
      For sure, someone's got to be the practical parent!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rockscan View Post
        Did your relationship with your kids ever improve after the court dates in 2018-2019? Hopefully it has.

        Your case is a crapshoot. He is being coached (literally and figuratively) to believe he has talent and a chance. In reality VERY FEW kids end up in the big leagues. He should be focusing on a scholarship but it doesn�t sound like he is as his mom and step dad are encouraging this. Is it his dream or theirs?

        If you want to self rep you could simply stop paying cs or file to stop cs as kid is over 18 and not in a meaningful program of study. If he hasn�t even applied to schools with a scholarship then its a no brainer this is not a child of the marriage.
        Yes, since 2018; relationship with kids has improved Thanks!
        Post court (early 2016) dual court decisions/endorsement in my favour = set the stage for a (long) reunification process. (if you're interested: could PM you with a concise backstory, with ultimately a positive outlook/attitude and future disposition. (looking through the windshield, and not in the rear view mirror!

        Spot on! (and most perceptive of you) He's being coached: literally/figuratively. Is it in the childrens'/dependents' best interests?
        Dreams are important for kids to have and parents to encourage realizing

        IMHO: Even more important for parents: is to be practical and encourage, guide and support their children to establish a career with a higher opportunity of being realized (one the child enjoys!)


        Just how tough is it to reach the NHL? (ESPN article: 2007)
        https://www.espn.com/nhl/news/story?page=campbell1113

        Unsure if that's a rhetorical statement about who's dream...
        I'm on side and have been encouraging the scholarship avenue as a means of attaining an education.

        OP asked FRO to collect CS = garnish wage initiated in late 2019,
        so FRO needs court order to stop (collection agency can't act unilaterally, unless both payor and recipient consent to do so...)

        Contrary to wanting to utilize/steal scare $ resources (from parents/kids) to support the "divorce industry"; after utilizing two Family Law lawyers (both were quite good), I (sadly) watched my savings deteriorate and was mindful that in 5 years, I had little to show for it ...

        I have been self-repping since late 2015: and greatly appreciate your engaging and insightful conversation and suggestions 👍

        I indeed plan on actioning your suggestion:
        file to stop cs as kid is over 18 and not in a meaningful program of study. If he hasn�t even applied to schools with a scholarship then its a no brainer this is not a child of the marriage.

        BTW: I have advanced three Offers To Settle: though they've been rejected.
        Onward and upwards!

        Much appreciated rockscan!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
          Post secondary is an important consideration for him whether he plays or not. Professional sports is a short career, so he should ideally have education to pursue a career after hockey. If he gets injured, he's suddenly out of a hockey career so this is an 'and' strategy rather than an 'or' strategy.
          Originally posted by rockscan View Post
          Yes but if his mother and step father are encouraging him and the history of alienation is still there, dad has little say. Even when it�s the right decision!
          ^blinkandimgone: totally concur with you!

          ^rockscan: most perceptive and accurate again!
          Parental Alienation is indeed an insidious issue.
          All the most genuine and positive parenting initiatives of one parent (Target Parent) with a child, may be partially or wholly "undone"; when the child is in the presence of the OP (Source Parent) and is their behaviour is "adjusted" to be more aligned to the negative/toxic behaviour of that parent...
          (Keep the kids out of the middle!)

          As someone wise said to me: they'll figure it out when they grow a brain!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rockscan View Post
            Did your relationship with your kids ever improve after the court dates in 2018-2019? Hopefully it has.

            Your case is a crapshoot. He is being coached (literally and figuratively) to believe he has talent and a chance. In reality VERY FEW kids end up in the big leagues. He should be focusing on a scholarship but it doesn�t sound like he is as his mom and step dad are encouraging this. Is it his dream or theirs?

            If you want to self rep you could simply stop paying cs or file to stop cs as kid is over 18 and not in a meaningful program of study. If he hasn�t even applied to schools with a scholarship then its a no brainer this is not a child of the marriage.

            *Relevant Decision:
            kid is over 18 and not in a meaningful program of study


            [20] The respondent argues that the evidence indicates that Matthew and Aaron chose to enter the work force rather than meaningfully pursue post-secondary studies. As such, she argues, her child support obligations should have ended when each child turned 18 years of age.

            [23] The respondent acknowledges that if the children do enroll in a full time educational program in the future, they may again qualify as “children of the marriage”, but argues that the affect of future attendance is an issue to be decided if and when either child actually commences such a program.

            [45] An adult child cannot, however, indefinitely postpone the commencement of post-secondary education and expect to remain a dependant, entitled to parental financial support. In the absence of “illness or disability” or some other cause that makes him “unable” to attend school, he no longer qualifies as a “child of the marriage” within the meaning of s. 2(1) of the Divorce Act.

            [46] While virtual learning may not be ideal, Matthew’s and Aaron’s decision not to enroll in any educational program for the 2020-2021 academic year was their choice. It was a choice that, as adults, they had every right to make, but it is not a choice that the respondent should be required to pay for.

            * Edwards v. Edwards, 2021 ONSC 1550 (CanLII)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by kidsRworthit View Post
              ^ clarification: hockey scholarship is actually secondary. (no mention of it)
              Greatly appreciate your point 👍 Uncertain if enrolment P/T in school is scholarship prequalification. Thanks, will research!

              He is laser focused on playing for (any) competitive hockey team this fall (Canada/US), by making the hockey camp (tryouts) this summer.

              Uni courses haven't been considered/discussed for the fall, plainly because that is secondary and not his focus.

              Note: I've identified the importance of taking Uni courses in his area of interest, while also playing hockey = as building toward his future.
              That way, if he doesn't realize where he wants to be; he's not starting from the beginning, and he can carry forward with his Uni studies and non-hockey player career path...
              Just a side not here, I'm a billet mom, I take in boys that play Junior A in my town. Every single one of them over the years was doing some type of schooling. One was still in high school but all the others did part time university courses. From 1-3. Obviously in preparation for plan B if that commitment (scholarship) doesn't come through. So most likely if he makes Junior A or even B he will be doing courses.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by LMum View Post
                Just a side not here, I'm a billet mom, I take in boys that play Junior A in my town. Every single one of them over the years was doing some type of schooling. One was still in high school but all the others did part time university courses. From 1-3. Obviously in preparation for plan B if that commitment (scholarship) doesn't come through. So most likely if he makes Junior A or even B he will be doing courses.

                But as a billet mom, you get some money from the league to house him. Plus I believe in Junior A and B they also get paid a bit of money too (I could be wrong though) which means the other parents arent technically requiring full support.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                  But as a billet mom, you get some money from the league to house him. Plus I believe in Junior A and B they also get paid a bit of money too (I could be wrong though) which means the other parents aren�t technically requiring full support.
                  Yes there are billet fees. It usually approx $500 a month but it depends on the team. I heard it can be much higher.

                  Edited to say that billet fees are paid by the PARENTS not the league.

                  No they don't get paid. They pay to play and its not cheap. At least that's my team and league. I don't know what its like in the US or other leagues but I would be surprised to hear that the players are paid.

                  Supporting you child though a Junior program can be just as expensive as uni IMO. And its not a bad thing, these boys are good hard working respectful kids. Its a good life building experience as they go into adulthood, and should be encouraged if the opportunity presents itself. Even if CS is paid or not, parents should penny pinch (if necessary) to support their child through it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by LMum View Post
                    Yes there are billet fees. It usually approx $500 a month but it depends on the team. I heard it can be much higher.

                    Edited to say that billet fees are paid by the PARENTS not the league.

                    No they don't get paid. They pay to play and its not cheap. At least that's my team and league. I don't know what its like in the US or other leagues but I would be surprised to hear that the players are paid.

                    Supporting you child though a Junior program can be just as expensive as uni IMO. And its not a bad thing, these boys are good hard working respectful kids. Its a good life building experience as they go into adulthood, and should be encouraged if the opportunity presents itself. Even if CS is paid or not, parents should penny pinch (if necessary) to support their child through it.

                    Oh I totally agree. Where I disagree is one parent unilaterally making a decision (especially when that decision involves a step parent) and expecting the other parent to pay for it. Not every hockey player gets into the NHL and a lot of parents lose sight of their kids having a very secure plan b in the event it doesnt work out. Its not fair to the child.

                    And this goes for the parents who insist their kids go away to school when the kid isnt emotionally ready.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If he isn't talking to an NHL scout now the probability of him ever talking to one is very low.

                      You would be better off using the CS money to buy lottery tickets. I believe Bobby Orr talks to the probability of a child, in Canada making the NHL.. It is like 0.001% or 0.1% either way... it is a number fast approaching 0.0.

                      Only way you will deal with this is with a judge. File a motion and see what happens.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                        Oh I totally agree. Where I disagree is one parent unilaterally making a decision (especially when that decision involves a step parent) and expecting the other parent to pay for it. Not every hockey player gets into the NHL and a lot of parents lose sight of their kids having a very secure plan b in the event it doesn�t work out. Its not fair to the child.

                        And this goes for the parents who insist their kids go away to school when the kid isn�t emotionally ready.
                        When I say it should be encourage, it really really mean this. If the kids wants it, and they make a team. Make it happen! If you child really really wants this do, everything in your power to make it happen. I know this sounds bad, but money schoney !! That's how good these programs are.

                        Also most of these kids don't make the NHL (like you said) and a handful get committed. And these teams are make up of a good percentage of locals to each town, when they are recruited and billeted, someone saw something in them.

                        Plan B is the part time online uni course. The team can also help them with this (not financially just procedurally).

                        But there are always risks. Injury, trades, etc. I lost a kid last year to a hockey limiting injury. He was being scouted but a uni in the states and now that's over.

                        If it were me and I were the payer of CS, I'd continue to pay it. If I were the recipient, I would try to have it continued. I think these program, as long as they are doing some courses, are the same a schooling. Just a different way. I mean its not like they are taking a year or more off to find themselves. They work harder is this hockey program then any kid in full time uni.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                          If he isn't talking to an NHL scout now the probability of him ever talking to one is very low.
                          The chances of them talking to an NHL scout going into this league is very very rare and should not be a factor in any decision. They come, they play and then they talk to Uni scouts. The number of kids getting committed to a uni and then scholarship is much higher. So short term pain (paying for Junior A), for long team gain (scholarship).

                          Worst case scenario is, they come, they pay to play, do some courses. They don't get committed and then they go to uni full time.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                            If he isn't talking to an NHL scout now the probability of him ever talking to one is very low.

                            You would be better off using the CS money to buy lottery tickets. I believe Bobby Orr talks to the probability of a child, in Canada making the NHL.. It is like 0.001% or 0.1% either way... it is a number fast approaching 0.0.

                            Only way you will deal with this is with a judge. File a motion and see what happens.

                            Ironically: this week, my son indicated that (with his Mom and Step-Father), he signed a 1 yr. contract with a Sports Agent; who's job it is to represent my son and "market" him to prospective Jr. teams (Canada).
                            Assuming performance and health (physical/mental) are proven: NHL scout contact would be the next level...

                            Agreed, appreciated and will action:
                            Only way you will deal with this is with a judge. File a motion and see what happens.



                            Related reading:

                            JUST HOW TOUGH IS IT TO REACH THE NHL? (ESPN article: 2007)
                            https://www.espn.com/nhl/news/story?page=campbell1113


                            UNDERSTANDING JUNIOR HOCKEY: THE PATH TO THE NHL
                            https://goaliecoaches.com/understand...ckey-path-nhl/

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by kidsRworthit View Post
                              Ironically: this week, my son indicated that (with his Mom and Step-Father), he signed a 1 yr. contract with a Sports Agent; who's job it is to represent my son and "market" him to prospective Jr. teams (Canada).

                              I was gonna ask if he had an agent. This is a good sign.

                              But look step dad may be interfering here, and I mean in pumping his tires. Every team has a "Billy", Billy being the best player and everyone says "this kids gonna make it". If he makes it to at least Junior A, Billy is now on a team with 20 other Billys.

                              That all being said, it he makes a team do all you can to make it happen. Sell your tv, wear your shoes till they have holes in them. Literally this is the best thing that can happen to a kid this age. I'm sure there are exceptions, but these kids turn into GREAT adults.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by LMum View Post
                                I was gonna ask if he had an agent. This is a good sign.

                                But look step dad may be interfering here, and I mean in pumping his tires. Every team has a "Billy", Billy being the best player and everyone says "this kids gonna make it". If he makes it to at least Junior A, Billy is now on a team with 20 other Billys.

                                That all being said, it he makes a team do all you can to make it happen. Sell your tv, wear your shoes till they have holes in them. Literally this is the best thing that can happen to a kid this age. I'm sure there are exceptions, but these kids turn into GREAT adults.
                                Your insight and positive convictions on the Junior A hockey billet opportunity for aspiring/talented athletes is much appreciated!
                                You've raised a number of points regarding the positive life experience this opportunity fosters. Good for you in so doing!

                                Clarification: based on my personal situation, I feel that there has indeed existed a material change in circumstances, justifying why my son is no longer a "child of the marriage", and no longer entitled to child support.

                                Notes:
                                assuming next, court ordered/FRO enforced Child Support is a non-issue:
                                1. there is every intention to provide support (financial/guidance) towards my (soon 19 yrs. old) son's Jr. hockey initiative and (especially) post-secondary education;

                                2. I desire to pursue ^1. on MY terms. (that's the essence of my issue, and likely many others in a similar situation to mine)

                                3. there is a consistent (court identified) pattern of behaviour by the other parent (yes contempt finding;(; of actions taken which are contrary to court orders, spirit of court endorsements, and regrettably harmful to the children.

                                Comment

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