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Divorce Support This forum is for discussing the emotional aspects of divorce: stress, anger, betrayal of trust and more.

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  #51  
Old 01-18-2016, 02:19 PM
stripes stripes is offline
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^^^ I'd be careful about this. The organization has said explicitly that the services being provided, whatever they are, are not medical in nature so there's no question of someone misrepresenting him/herself as a mental health professional. Crime stoppers/police will not be interested, because there is no fraud.

If the OP has all the time in the world, he could investigate whether the services being provided are fundamentally the same as those provided by registered psychologists, and then go to the provincial college with a complaint about an unlicensed person practicing. But he would need really strong proof that the prerogatives of licensed psychologists are being usurped. The word "counsellor" can cover many things (unfortunately), not all of which are the terrain of licensed professionals.
  #52  
Old 01-18-2016, 03:31 PM
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There are a few things wrong with the CTR's response.

To begin, any kind of mental health intervention is considered medical.

Secondly, the organization claims that they are not doing anything "life-altering". I think that's an extremely subjective, ambiguous statement on their part. Who are they to say what D4 considers or perceives as life-altering?

She's 4 years old and has already been spoken to about her private parts, lies, secrets, etc by strange adults. She deserves the chance to be a kid. And I deserve the chance to at least know whats being discussed, be a part of it and/or have a say in it.

My ex asked for my consent for the witness counselor. I declined since D4 never witnessed violence. You don't go to a foot Dr to cure a tooth ache. I offered 5-6 licensed, qualified, neutral child psychologists and offered to pay.

Ex has stated that D4 shuts down wont talk about anything, etc. I'm guessing this may be due to of all this mature, inappropriate questioning from unqualified ppl who may be doing more damage than good.

I'm certainly not going to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here .. but this agency needs to realize that father's have rights too.

Let's not forget that my ex said ..IN LAO SC in front of everyone ... that there was never any abuse, verbal or otherwise . in her own words "things got blown out of proportion and she was sorry".

Too bad this women's shelter didn't see this for almost 3 years and encouraged her actions and gave her every tool available.

The last thing I expected was a letter saying that the Witness Counselor will talk to my child all they want and there's not a damn thing that I, as the biological father can do about it....based on their loosey goosey subjective definitions of "medical" and "life-altering".

Tayken....thanks for the info. I do have the counsleor's name. I'll look in to it a bit more when I get home and decide if I want to do anything about it.
  #53  
Old 01-18-2016, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
There are a few things wrong with the CTR's response.

To begin, any kind of mental health intervention is considered medical.
And the question to put forward is if they are not "mental health" then what services are they providing to the child? Recreational services. Many of these organizations have issues with non-licensed people acting and conducting themselves as medical practitioners when they are not. This is dangerous to the general public. It isn't an issue of fraud but, public health. We have Acts that govern clinical conduct for a reason in Canada. So not everyone can slap a medical title on a door and hurt people.

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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Secondly, the organization claims that they are not doing anything "life-altering".
Then, what are they providing? Recreational services? So then they are stating they are not providing any benefit to the child. Then it should stop. Not like they are teaching the child how to skate or dance.

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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
I think that's an extremely subjective, ambiguous statement on their part. Who are they to say what D4 considers or perceives as life-altering?
This is correct. They are not in a position to judge the services they are providing. That is why we have governing medical bodies that review professional's conduct. If they are not registered they are not professionals and are operating in contravention of the law.

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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
She's 4 years old and has already been spoken to about her private parts, lies, secrets, etc by strange adults. She deserves the chance to be a kid. And I deserve the chance to at least know whats being discussed, be a part of it and/or have a say in it.
This is where CAS may be able to help you out with this organization.

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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
My ex asked for my consent for the witness counselor. I declined since D4 never witnessed violence. You don't go to a foot Dr to cure a tooth ache. I offered 5-6 licensed, qualified, neutral child psychologists and offered to pay.
Your lawyer should send the letter outlining that you will seek an injunction from them having access to and contact with the child in question. Basically a nice letter stating they have one opportunity to end their conduct or you will move forward legally.

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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Ex has stated that D4 shuts down wont talk about anything, etc. I'm guessing this may be due to of all this mature, inappropriate questioning from unqualified ppl who may be doing more damage than good.
Again, if it is not medical purposes then why do they provide the service? Many of these organizations have been operating in a grey space until someone reports them.

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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
I'm certainly not going to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here .. but this agency needs to realize that father's have rights too.
Report them to the appropriate authorities. What they are doing is not proper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Let's not forget that my ex said ..IN LAO SC in front of everyone ... that there was never any abuse, verbal or otherwise . in her own words "things got blown out of proportion and she was sorry".
Yet, the child still attends this "counseling"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Too bad this women's shelter didn't see this for almost 3 years and encouraged her actions and gave her every tool available.
You can always contact their sponsors directly with the concerns. A good anonymous letter about how their donations are being used can be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
The last thing I expected was a letter saying that the Witness Counselor will talk to my child all they want and there's not a damn thing that I, as the biological father can do about it....based on their loosey goosey subjective definitions of "medical" and "life-altering".
I would love to see this letter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Tayken....thanks for the info. I do have the counsleor's name. I'll look in to it a bit more when I get home and decide if I want to do anything about it.
Would love to see the letter...

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #54  
Old 01-18-2016, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by stripes View Post
If the OP has all the time in the world, he could investigate whether the services being provided are fundamentally the same as those provided by registered psychologists, and then go to the provincial college with a complaint about an unlicensed person practicing. But he would need really strong proof that the prerogatives of licensed psychologists are being usurped. The word "counsellor" can cover many things (unfortunately), not all of which are the terrain of licensed professionals.
FYI: It is a registered term in most provinces in Canada by a number of professional organizations and governed under various medical Acts. It wouldn't be just one college that takes an issue with the conduct. Especially in the context of any mental health. Also, if the OP see's the services as being in the health space then they have to content with that issue.

I have helped with a number of successful complaints and the shutdown of similar nutjobs claiming to provide psudo-psychological services.

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #55  
Old 01-18-2016, 04:10 PM
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I cant remember lf32 but isnt there a clause in your agreement that you will agree on a service like this? Or agree on medical etc? This is considered medical (loosely) and should be stopped. Perhaps a copy of the signed agreement? Also, d4 starts school in two weeks so wont it stop then?
  #56  
Old 01-18-2016, 05:16 PM
stripes stripes is offline
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Tayken, I think you're mistaken here. The term "counsellor" is wide open in Canada (except in the sense of legal counsel) - anyone can hang out a shingle and call him or herself a counsellor. Not everyone can call him/herself a doctor, a psychologist, a social worker or a psychotherapist, so if someone is using those terms, s/he may be breaking the law. The same is true if someone is prescribing medication or administering psychometric tests or other activities which are restricted to regulated professions. However, just talking about life and feelings and calling it "counselling" is completely legit. I'm not saying this is a good thing

It sounds like the shelter is being explicit that this is not medical in nature, and it would be difficult to prove that it is (how do you prove that something is a medical intervention, as distinct from "social support"?). My guess is that the shelter staff deal with this issue repeatedly - non-clients or estranged spouses wanting to determine what services the shelter offers to whom - and they've got their response down pat.

The OP can try reporting this to the Ontario College of Physicians or CAS or whoever, but I'm pretty sure it won't go anywhere because the shelter is acting within the law. I agree with other posters, this situation is most likely to resolve itself with the passage of time, and if there's no evidence that Kid is being harmed by it, it's not the hill to die on. The important thing is that Kid now has both parents in her life on an equal basis.
  #57  
Old 01-18-2016, 07:13 PM
SadAndTired SadAndTired is offline
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When I worked in the shelter, we didn't use the title counsellor. We used Women's Intervention Advocate and Children's Intervention Advocate.

We were referred to by Family and Children's Services/CAS daily. There is no need to report the shelter to CAS and the idea is simply preposterous to say the least.

It was CAS that asked the "mature" questions about your D4's body parts, right LF? Be honest and forthcoming here. The shelter does not deal with abuse toward children. We reported to FACS/CAS and let them take it from there. We did not engage in any intervention where a child was abused AT ALL. CAS would be outraged if we interfered with their investigations in any way.

Further, if D4 was seeing the Youth Counsellor in your school (likely a two year college grad with a child/youth worker diploma) would you be freaking out?? No.

I will tell you honestly that the shelter are CRISIS INTERVENTION only. Any "longer term" work would have been in a group format for several weeks only. Not 1:1 like you claim.

Interventions in the shelter are based on an Educational Model. Topics for women include identifying abusive behaviour, life and parenting skills, self esteem, etc. There is nothing that would qualify as medical intervention.

Sorry, you are simply wrong and grasping at the next straw trying to figure out who to blame next for your own mistakes.

Interventions for children in the shelter do not include any "mature" topics. The thought makes me laugh. They were very simple, feelings identification and self esteem. There is no malicious hidden agenda. We do not Daddy bash or man hate to children!

As I had posted long ago, the shelter deals with abusive partners. A man requesting information will be flatly denied. Would you hand a partner who had beaten and harrassed and name called a women information about her? I would hope not.

Keep pushing the shetler and see what happens. The shelter is backed by social services, the police, CAS, LAO and judges everywhere. THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP WOMEN and you are just wasting their time trying to be an ass.

I have seen hundreds of women and children in the shelter. Average length of stay in our shelter during my time there was 5-7 days. Women often returned home hoping their partner would change. I have seen women battered and bloody and terrified. One woman hid in a ditch all night because it was her only way to escape.

I had a seven year old look me in the eye and say with tears, "I wish my Daddy didn't hurt Mommy. I wish he had a bigger head or maybe a bigger heart."

And you want to waste their time by requesting information on something that you don't understand. You want to file a complaint? I am sure the shelter has nothing better to do that deal with your sob story.

So take your ridiculous, whiny BS somewhere else. You got 50/50. You say your daughter is happy, healthy and thriving in your care. She is going to school where her behaviour will be monitored by a licensed teacher, a Registered ECE and will have a resource teacher and a school counsellor at her disposal. What more do you want?? What punishment for those involved with your case will make you feel like justice is served??

The person who needs counselling is you LF.

Last edited by SadAndTired; 01-18-2016 at 07:17 PM.
  #58  
Old 01-18-2016, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
When I worked in the shelter, we didn't use the title counsellor. We used Women's Intervention Advocate and Children's Intervention Advocate.

We were referred to by Family and Children's Services/CAS daily. There is no need to report the shelter to CAS and the idea is simply preposterous to say the least.

It was CAS that asked the "mature" questions about your D4's body parts, right LF? Be honest and forthcoming here. The shelter does not deal with abuse toward children. We reported to FACS/CAS and let them take it from there. We did not engage in any intervention where a child was abused AT ALL. CAS would be outraged if we interfered with their investigations in any way.

Further, if D4 was seeing the Youth Counsellor in your school (likely a two year college grad with a child/youth worker diploma) would you be freaking out?? No.

I will tell you honestly that the shelter are CRISIS INTERVENTION only. Any "longer term" work would have been in a group format for several weeks only. Not 1:1 like you claim.

Interventions in the shelter are based on an Educational Model. Topics for women include identifying abusive behaviour, life and parenting skills, self esteem, etc. There is nothing that would qualify as medical intervention.

Sorry, you are simply wrong and grasping at the next straw trying to figure out who to blame next for your own mistakes.

Interventions for children in the shelter do not include any "mature" topics. The thought makes me laugh. They were very simple, feelings identification and self esteem. There is no malicious hidden agenda. We do not Daddy bash or man hate to children!

As I had posted long ago, the shelter deals with abusive partners. A man requesting information will be flatly denied. Would you hand a partner who had beaten and harrassed and name called a women information about her? I would hope not.

Keep pushing the shetler and see what happens. The shelter is backed by social services, the police, CAS, LAO and judges everywhere. THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP WOMEN and you are just wasting their time trying to be an ass.

I have seen hundreds of women and children in the shelter. Average length of stay in our shelter during my time there was 5-7 days. Women often returned home hoping their partner would change. I have seen women battered and bloody and terrified. One woman hid in a ditch all night because it was her only way to escape.

I had a seven year old look me in the eye and say with tears, "I wish my Daddy didn't hurt Mommy. I wish he had a bigger head or maybe a bigger heart."

And you want to waste their time by requesting information on something that you don't understand. You want to file a complaint? I am sure the shelter has nothing better to do that deal with your sob story.

So take your ridiculous, whiny BS somewhere else. You got 50/50. You say your daughter is happy, healthy and thriving in your care. She is going to school where her behaviour will be monitored by a licensed teacher, a Registered ECE and will have a resource teacher and a school counsellor at her disposal. What more do you want?? What punishment for those involved with your case will make you feel like justice is served??

The person who needs counselling is you LF.
What a terrible post... so bias, so useless and so provocative....

Nice anecdotes - 15 million women in Canada, a few thousand in shelters - its nothing and goes to show that 99% of men are not violent and have no problems.

In the LF's case we have somebody he has confirmed as being an imbecile being supported by imbeciles, and you with your backwards comments... Reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tealqxV0TtM
(go to 53 seconds)

Somebody under the guise of being a professional that works in a "woman's protection" organization is speaking to his daughter. Either he is a "threat" and they get a court order to counsel his daughter against his wishes or they get consent from him. We know that women's only organizations are most likely to be sexist against men etc... why would I let my daughter have her mind brainwashed by these idiots.

I sure as hell would not consent to this and I would pursue it and if I had the legal right I would sue them. Its only through persistence and following up on things that you will elicit change.
  #59  
Old 01-18-2016, 07:46 PM
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I think these womens' shelters would go a long way if they quit giving workers important-sounding titles. Perhaps a title such as "shelter associate" would be more appropriate?

"Intervention Advocate" sounds both pompous and disingenuous IMO and it also recklessly implies that the individual has authority, specialized education, when clearly they do not.

With that said, I realize that there are many good, well-meaning people who volunteer at the women's shelters and I commend them.
  #60  
Old 01-18-2016, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
It was CAS that asked the "mature" questions about your D4's body parts, right LF?
Only when the unqualified "counselor's" had a conniption that a father would bathe his own daughter. In my motion judges own words, "I find it unremarkable that a father would bathe his own daughter or cuddle on what was the matrimonial bed". Thank the lord "real" professionals and police stepped in and cleaned up the mess.

Quote:
Be honest and forthcoming here.
Always am .. since the very beginning.

Quote:
The shelter does not deal with abuse toward children.
What does a "witness counselor" investigate? I'm fairly certain its children who have witnessed abuse.

Quote:
Further, if D4 was seeing the Youth Counsellor in your school (likely a two year college grad with a child/youth worker diploma) would you be freaking out??
Freaking out? No. To be involved, cognizant of the content of therapy and ..have a say in it .. yes.

But to be fair, Ive never heard of a school counselor assisting in an unwarranted abduction, telling their clients to surreptitiously record household conversations, provide legal aid, housing, provide the funding and means for a streak of terror for almost 3 years of BS....(after which point my ex finally reveals "everything was blown out of proportion and she is sorry").

No consequences for the unqualified shelter workers who are limited in their capacity to weed out the game players and facilitated a situation whereby a child the traumatic experience of being denied access to a loving family.
The only person my ex should feel sorry for is our daughter.

And the shelters .. yes we need them and yes they help people. But they need to improve how they operate to stop the kind of madness that happened to me.

Quote:
We did not engage in any intervention where a child was abused AT ALL
Were you a counselor? If not, then I am concerned about the privacy of the clients attending the shelter you worked at as you have no right to their private information or whether there was abuse or not. If you are/were a counselor for abused women .... it explains a lot to a lot of posters.

Were there witness counselors at your shelter? Because that's what Im dealing with here. Again, its for children who witness violence/abuse, which D4 has never (as just admitted by my ex at LAO SC).

Quote:
Keep pushing the shetler and see what happens. The shelter is backed by social services, the police, CAS, LAO and judges everywhere. THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP WOMEN and you are just wasting their time trying to be an ass.
You might think I'm wasting my time. D4 has never witnessed violence or abuse so why would she be speaking to a counselor for children who witness violence/abuse. Let her be for god sakes.....or at least let the other parent (me) at least be involved or have a say in the matter. You see nothing wrong with this?

S&T .. again I will kindly ask you to refrain from name-calling. I don't appreciate being called an ass. Deep breath before you type.

Quote:
And you want to waste their time by requesting information on something that you don't understand. You want to file a complaint?
What don't I understand? D4 has never witnessed violence/abuse.....why the abuse counselor speaking to a 4 year old? WHy not a "qualified" child psych who has much experience in separation and custody disputes. I offered 4.

I understand perfectly what's going on. As Tayken said it's "not proper". This agency has done enough damage for close to 3 years dont you think?

Quote:
I am sure the shelter has nothing better to do that deal with your sob story.
Wow .. continued odd harshness. I only pray that you "never" have to experience what I did. Have you ever had a child abducted without good reason, held from you, been accused of sexual malfeasance, drugs, etc, required supervision like you were some animal.

Yes it is a sob story. I sobbed quite a bit actually.

Quote:
I will tell you honestly that the shelter are CRISIS INTERVENTION only. Any "longer term" work would have been in a group format for several weeks only. Not 1:1 like you claim.
No groups. It has been 1 on 1. This is confirmed in her e-mails as well as the agencies letter to me. Not sure what you're talking about but it has only been 1 on 1 counselling.

Quote:
I had a seven year old look me in the eye and say with tears, "I wish my Daddy didn't hurt Mommy. I wish he had a bigger head or maybe a bigger heart."
You dont have to explain why you're opinions are so biased against men and in favor of shelter workers. I've already said above that they do help people and serve a purpose.

Quote:
Interventions in the shelter are based on an Educational Model. Topics for women include identifying abusive behaviour, life and parenting skills, self esteem, etc. There is nothing that would qualify as medical intervention.
I wonder why my ex refused to do any of the parenting skills classes...like the judges asked her to.

If a witness counselor treats my child for alleged mood swings and provides coping startegies .. over many weeks via 1 on 1 sessions....yes this is surely considered medical. And in my opinion could certainly be life-altering for a child depending on the topics, tone, leading q's (unqualified pro's), etc.

Quote:
Sorry, you are simply wrong and grasping at the next straw trying to figure out who to blame next for your own mistakes.
Sorry .. what as my mistake again? I went sledding with my family, kissed them goodbye and went to work. That's it.

And yes I am blaming this agency for counseling our daughter regarding abuse (witness counselor) despite my non-consent and discomfort. In contrast, I have no qualms at all with registered, qualified professionals who are specially trained to deal with sensitive young minds without leaving scars. Its irresponsible of them .. and again, in Tayken's words .. improper.

Quote:
So take your ridiculous, whiny BS somewhere else.
No thanks. I think I'll continue to post here on odf, educating myself on my rights, responsibilities and getting good advice moving forward. I'm sorry to hear you find my wanting to be informed about counselling whiny. Clearly, the second the word "shelter" is mentioned you become enraged and begin insulting and name-calling. I would hope the moderators have another chat with you about that.

Quote:
What more do you want?? What punishment for those involved with your case will make you feel like justice is served??
Punishment is not what I'm after. I'm only after what I've always been after ... D4's best interests and my rights as a father to ensure her best interests are met. Apologies if that irritates you.

Quote:
Quote:
The person who needs counselling is you LF.
Just because somebody has a differing opinion then you does not justify your petty little digs and attacks. My mental health is just fine thank you.
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