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  • Liability of professionals

    I had a Section 30 done and it was very poorly done and it was less in my favor than my exs favor.

    This crappy report is going to cost me (and my spouse) a small fortune in trial fees because now they feel emboldened and I feel cheated and believe I can win.

    What is the liability of the private assessors if they are shown to have done incompetent and or highly biased work?

    Yes, I know Section 30s are not great to have. I got pulled into one by a lawyer and I suppose the spouse did too. I couldn't get out of it.

  • #2
    Don’t stress too much about it. S30 assessments are merely expensive toilet paper until you go to trial. Six months from now the assessment will be stale dated. It’ll be sufficient for the upcoming trial settings however if you’re not already on the trial list and miss this round...the court will need an updated s30...( can you hear the cash registers sing?). I’ve been waiting for 7 years and 4 x s30 assessments to go to trial. I refuse to pay for or participate in any more.good luck to you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Are the assessors immune to civil action?

      Comment


      • #4
        I soooo understand where you are coming from, however...it requires time and energy to proceed with civil litigation against them. Even if you are right and have a good case you are already at a disadvantage because you are a parent in a family court battle. As such you are already viewed unfavourably by the court and dismissed as an overly emotional party in a custody battle who is not to be taken seriously. You can also proceed with a complaint to their governing body but that will come back to bite you in family court where you will be seen as a vexatious litigant. Think of family court and all the side players like s30 assessors in terms of a chess game. Weigh your moves very carefully.
        Choose your battles wisely. You may be right that the assessor deserves to be sued but you probably have more important things to focus your time and energy on right now.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GreenGrass View Post
          What is the liability of the private assessors if they are shown to have done incompetent and or highly biased work?
          How on God's green and grassy Earth would you go about proving this? Remember, it is not enough to prove that they are wrong, you have to prove that they are wrong AND incompetent. You are not qualified to determine the quality of an assessment, which means that you would have to hire an expert witness to go through the notes.

          And again, it would not be enough for the expert to testify that they would have come to a different conclusion. The expert would have to testify that absolutely every single person who was a competent assessor would have completed the assessment in a different manner.

          Of course, the assessor would then hire their own expert to counteract your expert, and the other expert has a much easier job. They just have to say "Yeah, that's pretty much how I would have gone about doing the assessment"

          Fighting the conclusion of the assessment is one thing, winning civil damages directly from the assessor is a whole level of crap beyond that. The cost consequences of the likely loss of the civil suit would be staggering.

          You disagree with the result, that is fine. The civil suit is a dead end. Drop the idea immediately, it will only bring you grief.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GreenGrass View Post
            I had a Section 30 done and it was very poorly done and it was less in my favor than my exs favor.
            As is the case with the majority of S30 assessments. See Stillbreathing's post above.

            Originally posted by GreenGrass View Post
            This crappy report is going to cost me (and my spouse) a small fortune in trial fees because now they feel emboldened and I feel cheated and believe I can win.
            This is the wrong way to go about it. Family Law is not about "winners". If one or both parties take this position before the court they will end up being "losers" because the battle to win will sink their cause.

            High-conflict people view the family court as a win/lose situation. It is a very common and easily identified pattern of behavior. Ultimately all high-conflict people lose because family court is about compromise on both sides.

            If you are unwilling to compromise and hold a strong position and a need to win then you have thrown Rule 24 ("best interests of the children") out the window. The objective is not the parents winning or losing... It is about the CHILDREN winning. If you allow the conflict to escalate it only impacts the children, increases costs and jeopardizes their long-term relationship with you.

            Originally posted by GreenGrass View Post
            What is the liability of the private assessors if they are shown to have done incompetent and or highly biased work?
            They are an expert witness and are very protected against vexatious and frivolous complaints. You really need to hire a superior lawyer to explain this to you.

            https://theactiongroup.ca/wp-content...r-Jan-2016.pdf

            Read that paper. As you may not I will quote a relevant paragraph from it and highlight the key points that are demonstrated in your pattern on this site.

            High conflict family law cases frequently involve parents with problematic personality tendencies and/or personality disorders. Additionally, many of the family law cases that proceed to an assessment involve litigants who are deeply entrenched in the dispute. These cases are usually extremely difficult to resolve for many reasons, including the importance of the parenting issues to the parties, unrealistic expectations held by one or both parties, an inability for litigants to move from considering their own interests to those of the children, and, in many instances, the impact to some degree of a mental illness and/or personality disorder on the part of one or both parents. Consequently, it is perhaps not surprising that such litigants tend to question the conduct of the assessor when they are dissatisfied with the assessor’s recommendations, irrespective of whether or not the assessor has met his or her professional obligations.
            Sorry to say but, your patterns of behaviour on this site and in your postings make you appear to be a classic "high conflict" person. You are not going to like this statement. You are going to probably defend yourself viciously saying you are not doing this. That you are different. That we (or I) do not understand everything.

            Reality check for you. I have over 6000 posts. I have read your posts thousands of times over. Your pattern of behaviour is very typical to a very frustrated high-conflict parent. Almost textbook to what William Eddy and other professionals write about. You are stuck in your thinking and stuck in the conflict. Until you understand how to manage your anxiety and stuck thinking you will be in a cycle of unnecessary conflict and there will be no resolution in your matter. The best thing you can do for you and most importantly, your children, is to go seek out counseling with a professional who specializes in Cognitive Behaviour Thinking (CBT). They can help you significantly in resolving this negative behavior pattern you are experiencing.

            You are experiencing a trauma. Family separation. You may not be a "high conflict" person in general. Most people are not consistently "high conflict". Child disputes between parents can cause temporary anxiety and often does. But, you need to recognize this negative pattern of behavior and you have to want to change it for things to truly get better.

            You may be experiencing an "adjustment disorder" which is very common in your situation. This is not "bad" nor will it cause you to lose your children should you be diagnosed with it. What is "bad" is if you ignore it, say you ar fine and don't seek the help you need. It will only spiral and become worse for you.

            You need to heed Janus' and other very experienced and wise posters advice on this site. You are headed straight to a very ugly, expensive and wasteful family law trial...

            Originally posted by GreenGrass View Post
            Yes, I know Section 30s are not great to have. I got pulled into one by a lawyer and I suppose the spouse did too. I couldn't get out of it.
            You can get out of it by focusing on the recommendations. Learning to compromise and making a good offer to settle. Use the S30 as guidance and not fact. Use the recommendations. Make offers to settle. Stop fighting to "win" and start fighting to "settle" the matter.

            You need to learn to compromise. If you are not wiling to compromise and what you should really compromise on... It is only going to get worse for you.

            There are no winners in Family Court.
            Last edited by Tayken; 03-03-2019, 10:38 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Janus View Post
              How on God's green and grassy Earth would you go about proving this? Remember, it is not enough to prove that they are wrong, you have to prove that they are wrong AND incompetent. You are not qualified to determine the quality of an assessment, which means that you would have to hire an expert witness to go through the notes.
              It is rarely done. The "success" rate is even rarer. I have case law where it has been done but, we are talking about absolute quacks. Add on top of that the protections given to "expert witnesses" in legislation to be protected from this.

              Originally posted by Janus View Post
              Of course, the assessor would then hire their own expert to counteract your expert, and the other expert has a much easier job. They just have to say "Yeah, that's pretty much how I would have gone about doing the assessment"
              Even worse... The assessor doesn't hire their own expert. Their practice insurance provider does. They are extreme experts when it comes to defending their clients because ultimately, it is the multi-billion-dollar insurance company that has to pay.

              Furthermore, the college will generally not rule against a clinician. It has to be gross negligence that put someone in serious danger. The college doesn't do much in the case of "opinion evidence".

              Originally posted by Janus View Post
              Fighting the conclusion of the assessment is one thing, winning civil damages directly from the assessor is a whole level of crap beyond that. The cost consequences of the likely loss of the civil suit would be staggering.
              It is staggering.

              Originally posted by Janus View Post
              You disagree with the result, that is fine. The civil suit is a dead end. Drop the idea immediately, it will only bring you grief.
              Agreed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Fighting the conclusion of the assessment is one thing, winning civil damages directly from the assessor is a whole level of crap beyond that. The cost consequences of the likely loss of the civil suit would be staggering.
                In a civil claim, there are two parts to consider.
                1 - did the defendant do, or fail to do, something resulting in a loss to the plaintiff?
                2 - if yes, what is the value of that loss?

                The family trial will be the defendant's best evidence. Either OP will lose the family trial - in which case the assessor is vindicated - or OP wins and receives costs from their ex. By receiving an award of costs they have already mitigated the loss due to the assessment. Not wholly, perhaps, but to some degree.

                On the other hand, by suing the assessor, OP needs expert evidence that they failed to meet their duty of care or were negligent. That will not be cheap.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you for the points of view and facts.
                  When I say "I believe I can win" I should have put that in quotes, as stated it is a common state of mind. I am fully aware of the role that I am am stuck overcoming now.

                  Why did they lie? I don't know, their own sense of justice? Maybe they thought I was a bad guy. Maybe they found me to be a liar. I have to work to make sure I don't present that way if either are true. It is true I have experienced very high anxiety and I do realize that actions by the other side throughout were meant to increase my anxiety but I have not blown up or done anything like that.

                  Many significant things were left out of the report including some child abuse. How does that not make it into the report?

                  The bad thing about this is that it appears I am stuck going to trial now.
                  Yes, we are a high conflict pair but I have been a straight shooter during all of this and they have not.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GreenGrass View Post
                    T

                    Why did they lie? I don't know, their own sense of justice? Maybe they thought I was a bad guy. Maybe they found me to be a liar. I have to work to make sure I don't present that way if either are true. It is true I have experienced very high anxiety and I do realize that actions by the other side throughout were meant to increase my anxiety but I have not blown up or done anything like that.
                    My guess is that there is some inherent bias that assessors come into the situations with...yes, there are a lot of false allegations. But consider that there are also a lot of real stories about aggressive, and abusive men in the domestic context. Unfortunately I think because the stakes are so high with family matters- kids- and their safety- I think no one wants to make a wrong judgment call, and a child or woman ends up harmed as a result. I've been reading a lot of cases regarding challenging assessors and OCL clinicians- and I wish that they would back their opinions/positions up with evidence- secondary affidavits (e.g. were there outcries previously? Do those fit the narrative?).

                    Again- sometimes (a lot of times) I feel guilt because I have the resources to get good advice going into these things. My lawyer actually coached me on how to back up the claims I was making. E.g. when I explained the historical violence in our relationship- I explained that as a result I went to see a counselor when I was pregnant and my ex physically confronted me. My lawyer made sure I notified that counselor (that I saw almost 3 years ago)- and I signed a release so that the OCL clinician could speak with her and verify what I was saying was true. That simple step verified the timeline for the clinician.

                    I wish they wouldn't just "believe this to be true". It works both ways. For example, my ex said that he stopped smoking weed and drinking. And the OCL basically said "I believe him". wtf? How hard would it have been to recommend that he do some closed private testing to back that claim up???

                    Many significant things were left out of the report including some child abuse. How does that not make it into the report?
                    did they get the CAS report? were they notified CAS was involved.

                    The bad thing about this is that it appears I am stuck going to trial now.
                    Yes, we are a high conflict pair but I have been a straight shooter during all of this and they have not.
                    Is your s.30 assessment complete and filed with the court? have you asked that they reexamine some of the issues?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      no CAS involvement for several years. The CAS can make things far worse and so I was afraid to.

                      There is some reporting but this reporting was ignored. Like you I sense your frustration over things like a person stated they stopped smoking weed and drinking because that person said so.

                      The court is not yet involved.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How old is the s.30 assessment?


                        When did you receive disclosure of their findings?

                        Again- did you ask that the assessor re-examine the issues?

                        As to the child abuse- any other evidence you can use to back this up? did you outcry to someone else? did the child? is there someone- aside from yourself that can verify this?
                        Last edited by iona6656; 03-04-2019, 12:03 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                          How old is the s.30 assessment?
                          It seems fresh. But, it will be stale by the time they get to trial unless they are fast-tracked by the trial management coordinator. Then the nightmare of Stillbreathing will happen.


                          Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                          Again- did you ask that the assessor re-examine the issues?
                          Requires both parties consent to do and lots of money. Generally, if the report is favourable to one party they won't agree. The only true place to dispute a S.30 report is at trial or in arbitration where evidence can be heard.

                          Otherwise... it is best to hold evidence close to your chest until such time the matter is heard where evidence is evaluated. This is one of the reasons they increase time and cost to most (if not all) matters.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                            My guess is that there is some inherent bias that assessors come into the situations with...yes, there are a lot of false allegations.
                            There is this. There is also the other issue that they are not the "trier of fact" a judge or arbitrator is. They can only make recommendations based on "expert opinion". Lots of people read them and sell them as the "be all end all" of a family law dispute. 9 times out of 10 they increase conflict.

                            The other less known issue is that most of these "reports" are boilerplate stuff. The assessor simply has a template for their response and recommendations and then apply it. If you read enough in CanLII from a specific set of assessors you will notice that their recommendations are word-for-word identical between different matters. You will also notice that a large portion of their recommendations can't even be implemented by the court.

                            Most S.30 assessors are clinicians and not lawyers. So their recommendations are unimplementable as an order. Judges who are experienced know how to ignore the noise in the report and stick to what is relevant. Bad lawyers will leverage the irrelevant to create more conflict. Experienced lawyers will explain to their clients why it is irrelevant.

                            Furthermore, in family law there is a huge amount of "subjective" stuff that isn't a part of most law. Rule 24 is a really complex rule. As a rule the "best interests" is really really really hard to understand. So is the concept of hearsay and relevance. Concepts even lawyers struggle with. Throw a quasi-clinical "report" into the mix and how does that make things better?

                            S.30 reports in a high conflict situation often spark more issues than they are worth. That is why they try to present the "results" prior to even writing them in a joint meeting between counsel and parties. But, if you have one enraged HCP it won't end there... Ever.

                            These reports are NOT clinical in nature. In fact, anyone qualified as an expert by the court could do an S.30 report. You don't have to have a PHD to do them. Generally, they are done by MD/PHDs because qualifying them as an expert is somewhat easier.

                            Justice Pazaratz was an OCL Assessor in the past as an example. You can find cases in his past as a lawyer where he prepared them in CanLII. That is why as a judge, he knows what to look for.

                            Prime example is how does an S.30 assessor deal with the whole issue of "strategic status quo"? How do they evaluate and consider if one parent is acting in a manner that escalates conflict to try and "win" a positive status quo. That was the whole basis for the Izyuk matter that has significantly shaped how these reports are considered.

                            Most S.30 and OCL people wouldn't even know what "status quo" is. They wouldn't know to dig deeper if one of the parties they are reviewing mentioned "status quo" in their interview and assessment. Why does a litigant even know about that? It's a legal term. Answer: Because someone told them they need to do anything or everything they can to get a positive "status quo".

                            That leads them to throw all the mud at the wall to see what sticks. The more you can slam the other party with allegations, even if they are irrelevant and false, the better it is for you. If you can achieve a favourable status quo early and hold on to it... You can ride that gravy train to a final order of full custody... Well... Not when Justice Pazaratz is hearing your matter. He understands, has seen, defended against (as a lawyer), and ordered against that horrible conduct.

                            See this case law on "false status quo": https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...1onsc6451.html

                            Assessors are not trained on how to evaluate at this level... Which is what the courts REALLY need from them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              same boat here. felt same about assessor. don't take what Tayken says personally. That is a very stereotypical way to look at it. Tayken is suggesting that any parent who disagrees with an assessor and feels was wronged, is a high conflict parent.

                              Tayken does at times over use the term high conflict to people who are upset at bias. We have already right to be upset. No one was ever happy for being wronged.

                              Don't waste your time suing the assessor. Put your money and time in meeting with a critique and your lawyer to dismantle the biased report. Costed me about $6000 legal fees and $4000 critique fees, which lead to an interim order setting the ground for shared parenting and mediation, $3500 later for mediation and the assessment report was left to be the toilet paper that I use to wipe my ass that it always was.

                              See my thread, I looked into filing a complaint with their governing body so their name gets posted on the college of social workers lost of professionals under review but supposedly that looks bad on you in courts.

                              How does the court actually find out bout a complaint about assessors after the final order been issued ??

                              Also, assessors, just like lawyers and judges, they pretty much all know each other and talk. You don't want to be that one guy they have warned each other about.

                              Follow the proper family court process to dispute the report. Speak to a critique. Fight the assessment report.


                              Don't worry about talking about winning. Its indicated right on the judicial website that family court operates under a win lose situation. Rarely ever there will be a tie. For me, losing wasn't an option and it equaled to basically losing all my rights to my kid and losing out on meaningful time with her. Worst of, my child would be the one losing out on having a great , fit, father in her life.

                              I'm not going to label some on the internet I don't even know as high conflict. Tayken is doing that meanwhile pointing out assessors don't even have the proper training to assess people in person .. I assume you know what's best for your kids and you need to win the battle to ensure your child wins. If you lose to the presumably assessment that is stripping you of custody and non sexist access, the your child loses.

                              Good luck. Feel free to PM if you need reference to good critiques and sample of OCL dispute.

                              I simply sent an email to thank the OCL and somewhat brag after I won. Yes, I did indeed win my claims, however, I explained I was happy knowing my child would be the one to benefit the most. I won, because I wanted my child to win. I didn't want my child to lose. I obviously didn't write this win lose stuff in the email for obvious reasons but I Wished the assessor a merry Christmas mainly because she even tried to take Christmas from my daughter after a judge just 2 weeks prior awarded me Christmas. Of course, my thank you email to the assessor was complete sarcasm and more of a very polite and impossible to prove "I won, you lost, go duck yourself."

                              Ride it out patiently, and you will get the last laugh when time comes. Much cheaper and less of a hassle then to sue an assessor. Though I think if enough of us dads sued them and filed complaints about them then they may think twice about being biased.
                              Last edited by tunnelight; 03-08-2019, 12:46 AM.

                              Comment

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