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  • Form13 financial statement

    I have question about completing this form which I've started on my own from the learnings of this web site and its members. In prep to give to my lawyer.

    Situation: CL for 7 yrs she still lives with me as 'room mates' strange I know. I pay all the bills in my house and give her cash each pay day to buy groceries for 2 of us + step son. When I fill out the part 4 expenses do I complete as if I was living along or do I include her spending in it. I susspect Is is to be a personal expenses of each ones of us individually ? In order to calc NDI.

    thanks !!

  • #2
    You should show what you pay for with respect to any rent, utilities etc.
    Plus other personal expenses like loans, debt, toiletries etc.

    I'm sure when she does her form, she will include all of the expenses she actually pays for. If she does not include the receipt of funds from you as cash "in" flow to her, you should have your lawyer address it in court.

    If you pay any portion of the mortgage, land taxes or up keep costs, include them.

    I would ask you lawyer if you should have two separate expense forms.
    One that reflected how the expenses were divided while you resided as CL, and a second for when you stopped residing as CL. I'm speculating that you contributed more during the CL portion. Just a thought worth exploring if the two scenarios are significantly different, particularly if there is a claim for unjust enrichment.

    Comment


    • #3
      Form13

      Thanks for your advice FL.
      My CL refused to work during the 7 yr period and was a stay at home mother. Living on 1 income is challenging. She has $0 income. I only asked her to work part time. I paid ALL bills incl mortgage, taxes, child's sports, school items, even her smokes. My lawyer shook her head and said you became a nice ATM for her. My mistake. She advised I now must maintain her life style as if we were still together. Looks like I have to pay for her apt rent plus maintain my mortgage....brutal situation.

      If I were to prepare a 2nd Form13 and exclude her $1,000. per month for goceries & mad money, I'm concerned her lawyer will see an opportunity to seek more cash from me.

      When her lawyer reviews my expenses on form13 can she question each items and have it justified? Lets say I put $50. per month for charities will I have to produce documentation to prove it?

      thanks for your comments

      Comment


      • #4
        This is indeed a tough situation, fill the form the way you presently are, the total income you earn, less every expense. If her spending is from your income, by all means include it! It seems of the $1000, it is left to her discretion the amount spent on food and herself? Yet I would wonder if a court would equate the money you give her less the actual cost of food, equal to a form of support??? If so the status quo may prevail.

        It looks to me like the ex is claiming that she is unable to be self supportive, thus the “need” for SS and that she gave up a possibility at a career to raise the child, although not yours. You must remember since this was a 7yr relationship that you are most likely being seen as "in place of a parent" as well to the step son, and as such the court views that mom gave up a career to raise the child, thus loosing out on valuable experience and advancement possibilities in the work force. Your counter claim would be to prove she was self supportive prior to the CL relationship and that she can be now.

        As for the "in place of a parent" issue, the counter would be to show you did not act in all capacities as a parent, IE attend medical/dental appointments, sign school permission slips, attend school functions in mom's place, etc.

        If you did not do any of these nor did you provide any form of discipline then you could claim you were not in place of a parent and therefore she would not be entitled to child support should she ask. I'm surprised she has not asked for CS.

        Does she expect to always be allowed to reside in your home?

        Comment


        • #5
          Form13

          Thanks for your comments FL.

          Yes I acted as DAD to my step son. I have no issue with CS or custody as she has asked for that. My ex worked before we met but REFUSED to work during the relationship. I kept asking and she kept refusing. She is fully capable. I gave her cash every pay day instead of giving her access to my bank accounts or credit cards. All financial aspects of the relationship were kept completely separate. No co-mingling of finances.

          No, she wants to move out and I can't wait for her to leave and the tension/stress level drops. But she can't get an apt without a job. Catch22.

          On the form you have to fill your detailed expenses. I don't understand why? Once I calc my NDI (gross pay - automatic payroll deductions by employer) then that is what she is going after for 45% - 50%, not your net income after expenses.

          From Jeffs web site
          "When one child is living with the spousal support recipient, the recipient typically receives 45-50% of the family’s net disposable income."

          Comment


          • #6
            I have no “personal” experience with SS.
            My understanding is that all SS claims are very much done on a case by case bases, and always based on the issues presented relative to need and ability to pay.

            If the ex is capable of self support then you would have a strong case to minimize it if not have it denied all together. If she is successful I would strongly request to have a “short” time limit placed on it. The fact that she needs a place to get a job, the whole catch 22, really is not your concern. If she is in that predicament until any SS or CS is ordered, she is still very much entitled to social help, and should seek it to get herself established.

            I would argue that as well to get her out quickly.
            To have a high level of stress when children are present really is not a good thing. Although they may be naive to the adult issues etc, they are neither blind nor incapable of understanding that something is wrong. They pick up faster than most adults on emotions etc.

            If you need case law on how and when SS is ordered there are many to choose from, http://www.canlii.org/en/advancedsearch.html
            this is the link.

            Comment


            • #7
              Separation

              Thanks FL.
              My lawyer advises that I stay in the house as to not change the 'status que'.
              I accept the fact that I will have to live off of 1 pay cheque a month as she will get the other in CS + SS payments. I agree to pay SS for 2yrs + alump sum payment. I don't want to be too generious so that she can stay 'parked' at her apt and not have to work. I work every day just like everone and we all pay taxes. Since she has been to a lawyer the term 'I deserve' has been used often. Must be nice to have everything paid for over 7 yrs and still use that term. Life goes on....

              Comment


              • #8
                Like I said, you may have a strong case.
                Lawyers tend to try to use scare tactics to get the other side (being you) to agree to their terms. They throw around legal terminology trying to sound authentic, but do NOT let this get to you.

                You could claim that since the time of the CL break down, (how long has she resided as "your room mate") you have been paying SS by means of $1000/month.
                Usually the court will take this into consideration, just because she resides in the some house does not mean that she was not receiving support. She is also, in addition to the physical $ support, you are essentially paying her rent/utilities etc. If you have continued to give her the $1000 for food and her spending this could be viewed (less the actual food costs) as temporary SS, and go towards the term of payment. If you agreed to 2 years, and you lived as room mates for let's say 8 months, then there is 1 and a 1/3 months left on the term you and her lawyer agreed to for the duration of SS.

                Just a thought to consider.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Financial statements

                  My son is in the same situation , he had 2 children when he moved in with her and had one with her . Now she wants suport for the two children
                  and going after suport for herself.
                  She was able to work before she met him and worked a few part time jobs when she moved with him . Now she refuses to work and wants him to pay
                  for her to sit at home , in the meantime she gets suport from the father of one child , as the other child is living with the grandparents . His
                  lawyer says he has to pay for both his child and the non biological child
                  plus suport for her too ... This is unfair she ended the relationship and planned all this out for a year , they were in this relationship for 8 years .
                  To me this is double dipping , as she gets suport from one child and now his
                  money too for that child , plus the one he had with her.. This is the third time she has been around and knows the ropes , sad for the fathers in these
                  situation and its an unfair system. Also she is on welfare now and loves not
                  having to work .

                  Maddy:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Maddy, I'm surprised that the courts did not input an income to her give her history in being able to work.
                    With a little upgrading I would speculate that she would be able to be quite self supportive. I guess having a small child means welfare does snot require her to work. However, if you are in Ontario, my understanding is that the recipients must seek at least part time work or attempt to find work, is this not the case?


                    Also, if your son is paying for a child that the bio dad is already paying for, is it not only partial table amounts? I would think that the courts would determine the amount for the child, less the bio dad's contributions equals the amount step dad is responsible for???

                    Sorry we went off topic my rivers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      http://www.canlii.org/en/sk/skqb/doc...nlii13430.html

                      In Thorvaldson v. Vanin 1996 CanLII 7189 (SK Q.B.), (1996), 149 Sask. R. 231, 25
                      R.F.L. (4th) 273 (Sask. Q.B.) an issue was raised as to
                      whether the respondent stood in loco parentis to the
                      applicant's child on the termination of an eight-year common-
                      law relationship. The natural father of the child in question
                      was legally obligated to pay $100 per month under an existing
                      order made prior to the cohabitation of the parties. There was
                      some information indicating the natural father had the ability
                      to pay more than he actually was. Pritchard J. held that the
                      mother had an obligation to seek variance of the support order
                      in respect of her child and the respondent's obligation for
                      the support of his own two natural children had to be taken
                      into account. There was a finding that the respondent stood in
                      loco parentis to the applicant's child but the amount of
                      support ordered to be paid was substantially less than the
                      Guideline amount that the respondent would have been required
                      to pay if he was the natural father. The order was given on
                      the assumption that the natural father had the financial
                      ability to pay more.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi FL...as a update to my story....

                        CL wife left in mid-may taking my step son with her. I submitted 3 yrs of tax returns + T4s and my form13. A very painful process for me. Her lawyer requested interm SS until the agreement is finalized. She still is not working and lives stictly off my SS pymts. Paying for 2 places is costly! Will seek credit for these months to reduce my SS period.
                        She also has a legal aid lawyer wile I have to pay mine. $22.50 + gst to read/respond to email...I could make a fortune at work. Only issues I have is duration of SS and amount. All else is ok.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would definitely request that there be a time frame placed on the SS and most certainly make the interim period part of that duration. SS is to "help" a person get back on their feet, and given the relatively short duration of your CL union, I would speculate that 1 to 2 years is more then enough support.

                          If it takes upwards of a year to get an agreement in place, and the limit is the 2 years, make sure to have the courts clearly indicate that the first X months comes off that 2 year period leavening 1 year and x months remaining, make it VERY clear to avoid a return trip to the court when the 2 years is up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            FL, thanks for the info. I could go even further as we officially spilt on Dec 1/2006 but lived as 'room mates' til May 2008 plus the interm SS pymts period. My ex was unable to get her own place until May 2008 as she perfers not to work, even til this day. Work ethic seems to have got lost when we started living together. Lesson learned on my part!

                            As a general question to fellow CL ppl....do 'co-habitation agreements' protect you or are they not worth the paper written on when it comes to court time?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              An agreement can go along way, however, the courts to reserve the right to amend them. They need to be sworn, and both parties need some form of legal representation to avoid a nullification based on not having been formally and completely informed of the ramifications of the agreement if they sign it.

                              If both parties have been completely advised of how this plays up upon separation, and the forms are witnessed and sworn, they will help if the issue ever goes to court. Better to have one then not.

                              Comment

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