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General Chat This forum is for discussing anything that doesn't fit into another forum, or for discussing things that are off topic, or just for general venting.

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  #21  
Old 05-08-2006, 11:28 AM
Divorcemanagement Divorcemanagement is offline
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You know what Jenny? I have basically reached the end of my tether on this. If Jeff wants to punt me as a moderator, then so be it. But before that happens here is what I have to say.

First off, I take huge offense to your ast statement:

Quote:
"I'm sorry I punched you in the face" but rather " I'm sorry you were upset at me punching you in the face"
Edit/Delete Message
There is a significant difference between my comments and an act of violence and that you would compare my comment to an act of family violence is both inappropriate and unfair.

I disagree with the view that my comments are driving women away from this forum. I reject any suggestion that I am insensitive to other's thoughts, feelings and opinions. Here is what I am seeing - some people contributing to what I have said here are not happy with my response. I am also seeing some people having a completely unrealsitic expectation of the use of a web forum.

I have made every effort to address the concerns of those who felt my comments were inappropriate and apparently, people still don't like the answer. Well, guess what - if you don't like my comments then don't read them. If you disagree with my point of view, I will debate you on it if it merits debate - but I will not apologize (nor should anyone) for having an opinion.

I work every day in the family law system. I have built a reputation for helping people-not hurting them. I think very carefully about the importance of diplomacy when talking about issues so controversial and polarizing. That being said, I am not perfect. So - if you don't like what I have to say, then dislike my ideas and contribution. But I would argue (and I suspect most here would agree) that my contributions have been helpful, understanding and supportive.

This issue has been talked to death. I am unsure what further acts of contrition people would like to see, however I am now officially done with apologizing.

In closing, I will note that I find tremendous irony in the fact that my comment about "free money" is offensive, but the following quote from Roseanne Barr is just dandy: "I'm not upset about my divorce. I'm only upset I'm not a widow."

If Jeff wants me gone then I will cease to participate. Otherwise, I am now officially done talking about this subject. If you feel disempowered by this posting, I guess it's just "ol' insensitive Sean vicitimizing people again".
  #22  
Old 05-08-2006, 11:31 AM
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Lindsay Lindsay is offline
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Quote:
It wasn't "I'm sorry I punched you in the face" but rather " I'm sorry you were upset at me punching you in the face"
I totally see what you are saying here. However, Sean was giving his opinion. IMO, I don't see why he should be sorry for that. In a lot cases, (and I can think of a few on these forums!) people will give their opinion and not give a rip about who they offend. That being said, I think Sean has gone the extra mile to apologize several times about offending anyone, and I do believe that he is genuinely sorry. I don't believe he is just saying that to appease you (and other members).

I think what makes this issue special, however, is the fact that Sean is a mediator and as such some may feel that he should always keep a neutral position. We must take into consideration, however, that Sean has also had a personal experience with divorce, so he is entitled to personal opinions too, as well all are.

Lindsay
  #23  
Old 05-08-2006, 11:34 AM
Jenny Jenny is offline
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Well to take a lesson from you " I'm sorry you feel this way"

note the not actually apologizing for MY words but how YOU took them- that is intentional and something I am learning from you. Interesting tactic.

That is my point!

ughhhhhhhh
  #24  
Old 05-08-2006, 11:38 AM
Divorcemanagement Divorcemanagement is offline
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And I am sorry that you made the comment. I am done on this thread folks.
  #25  
Old 05-08-2006, 11:39 AM
Jenny Jenny is offline
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Are you sure you are done - you said you were done officially a couple of posts ago.
  #26  
Old 05-08-2006, 12:01 PM
Jenny Jenny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Divorcemanagement
.

First off, I take huge offense to your ast statement:
There is a significant difference between my comments and an act of violence and that you would compare my comment to an act of family violence is both inappropriate and unfair.
What makes you assume FAMILY violence?

I am using it as an analogy since you either didn't get my various other comments/pm's on your "apologies" or you didn't change your response to them. Like i said interesting skill to have and I bet it serves you well in your personal and professional life when dealing with people who aren't perceptive to the fact - you didn't actually apologize.
  #27  
Old 05-08-2006, 12:29 PM
Grace Grace is offline
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Fact of the matter is that many female members took offensive to the "free money" term including myself, and I personally attacked Sean for it on a PM and also offered to resigned as Moderator for doing so. We have since settled our differences.

It is true that many female members have felt under attack over this. And if the women leave this the forum it will only have one voice, that of a male perspective. This is not what Jeff wants, nor do I believe the majority of all members. So stay strong ladies, and keep on posting. Your voices need to be heard. And for some of you its the first time you have a voice and are being heard. Your contributions are invaluable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
It's pretty clear that there has been a lot of tension on the forums over the last few days and I'd really like to put an end to it. While vigorous debate is encouraged, things have gone beyond that. I'm open to suggestions as to how to resolve this and I would encourage people to let me know.
Any suggestions???
  #28  
Old 05-08-2006, 10:35 PM
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Jeff Jeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beltane
And while you may feel he has apologized, I do not. I have read and RE-read his posts, and personally I only see a lot of cleverly thought-out scrambling around the direct question of his words "free money".
I've just re-read all Divorcemanagement's posts on this subject too and what comes through to me is how genuine he is about everything - his apologies, his explanations of what he said, and his attempts to mend fences with other members. I'm not sure that Divorcemanagement's choice of words is particularly important and people are focussing far too much on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beltane
I myself do not feel safe here to discuss the very deep emotional aspects of my divorce.
I'm sorry you feel that way and hope that's only temporary.

The other thing I'd say is that the political forum was specially created to deal with these controversial issues. The political forum certainly is not the place to go to deal with emotional aspects of your divorce - there's a support forum specifically for those sorts of issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beltane
Personally, I feel as though some women here expressed some very real concerns, and we have not-so-subtly been told to "quiet down" and stop rocking the boat.
I have trouble reconciling this statement with what I stated earlier in the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
I'm sorry that I did not give you clear guidelines about being a moderator, and I'm working on putting something together. But basically, there's a pretty laissez-faire attitude as long as people aren't flaming - so, all moderators should be using their moderator powers sparingly. It's really all about helping the members.
I really believe I've been running the forums along these lines. Just to be clear: no one should "quite down" and boats are meant to be rocked. As Grace said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
So stay strong ladies, and keep on posting. Your voices need to be heard.
-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divorcemanagement
I will send you a private message regarding your concerns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenny
Why a private message? Beltane has expressed her concerns publicly and I am wondering why they need to be addressed privately?
I do think some things are better addressed privately. In particular, disputes between people (including disputes relating to divorce) tend to be settled more easily privately than publicly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divorcemanagement
It should be noted that I have once again sent a message to Jeff offering to withdraw from acting as a moderator on this forum if there is any perception that my presence here is diminishing the value and importance of this forum.
Offer is rejected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beltane
I apologize for stirring the waters, but I will not remain quiet.
That's cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenny
it will be us "trouble makers" that will end up leaving or getting booted....
As Lindsay said, no one's being asked / forced to leave. I'm even surprised that people would think that would happen. And Jenny, I've always enjoyed reading your insights into things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divorcemanagement
I have basically reached the end of my tether on this.
Quite understandably!

I STAND BEHIND DIVORCEMANAGEMENT 100% ON THIS

I think if anyone doubts Divorcemanagement's good intentions, the just need to read everything he's written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
I think people need to recognize what an asset you are here.
I couldn't put it better myself than:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindsay
I'm personally sorry that some members feel attacked. I just hope we can all eventually accept Sean's numerous apologies and get back to healing and helping others through difficult times.
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2006, 11:37 PM
Divorcemanagement Divorcemanagement is offline
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Thank you Jeff for the vote of confidence. I would like to let everyone know that regardless of the recent controversy, I hold no ill-will toward anyone who contributes to this forum or anyone who has directed comments toward me... I have very thick skin.

Divorce is a life changing event - something that people aren't exactly hard-wired to manage in the same way that we might manage the death of a loved one or the loss of a friend. It can be (and for many people simply "is") a bitter and ugly experience.

My goal in contributing to this web forum is to give my insight (whatever that is worth to you is your choice) based on my experiences working in the family law system. I am not always right. I am not always wrong - however, I am not contributing to this forum in with a mind to "be" right. A correct response to a person's opinion is a matter of personal opinion for all of us. We either take the opinions of others and contemplate whether that person's insight is applicable to what we are personally experiencing in our own divorce related issue or we choose not to - but it's a choice we all make.

I wish there was a better family law system. I wish that divorce wasn't so hard on men, women and their children. I wish that parents wouldn't go to war with each other but it happens every day in this country so my philosophy is essentially "what do I need to do to get through today"... that is the focus of the process my colleague and I emphasize when we talk about the concept of "Divorce Management".. what are the skills, resources, support systems, educational tools and personal changes that the individual needs to incorporate as they experience this life-changing event.

This forum is an exceptional venue for people to learn about other's experiences - there is great value in that. At the same time, because it is a public web forum - it is a place where there needs to be freedom to say what you believe to be true and not face recrimination for simply expressing your point of view.

Because it is not "face-to-face" discussion, we don't have the benefit of experiencing each other's communication style by gauging a person's tone of voice, facial expressions, gestures, etc - what we are left with are words and words are one component of communication, but there are many others that help us decide whether or not we are being attacked for our opinions or validated for them. In short - there are limitations and we probably should be mindful of them when we respond to something that rubs us the wrong way.

There has been good that has come out of this recent controversy - Grace has rightfully brought up the need for perhaps engaging women's opinions in a way that will help them feel that this is an inclusive venue - I am all for that. Similarly, the controversy has probably given many of us pause to consider our own experiences and values - that is always a very good thing.

So we can all contribute our ideas, thoughts and opinions and perhaps we should all (and I am also talking about me here) emphasize diplomacy and work to communicate in a way that empowers rather than condemns, inspires as opposed to diminish. We are all walking wounded. The path to personal healing is often a long and bumpy road - however, all of us can choose to learn from the experience of divorce, redefine and rebuild our lives in a way that can be an example to others.

What do you need to get through today everyone - where are you going tomorrow?
  #30  
Old 05-09-2006, 01:13 AM
Grace Grace is offline
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[QUOTE=Divorcemanagement]There has been good that has come out of this recent controversy - Grace has rightfully brought up the need for perhaps engaging women's opinions in a way that will help them feel that this is an inclusive venue - I am all for that. Similarly, the controversy has probably given many of us pause to consider our own experiences and values - that is always a very good thing. /QUOTE]

Please don't put words in my mouth. And from now on lets vent out our frustrations on the open forum and not in PM's. I don't feel that this is an inclusive venue for engaging women's opinions on this forum, I feel I have supported all on this forum, quite frankly I feel this is a personal put down, and I am insulted, and I feel belittled by your remarks, and as a moderator that you would consider my post would make me feel inclusive. Your ability to dance around issues is quite frankly pathetic. Why can't you say sorry, Beltane for the inappropriate comment I made about "free money" and be done with it.

I want to continue to contribute my views as a "Senior Member", but I officially resign my position as Moderator. I trust that Jeff will take the necessary steps to remove my "powers" as a moderator.

Please spare me any I'm sorry you feel that way. Been there done that.
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