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  • Ex not paying S7 - options?

    Okay everyone, I'd appreciate some advice on this situation.

    Background: one kid, 50/50, offset CS and S7 proportionate to income, I am the net payor. Divorce order says S7 will be reconciled twice a year, June and December. Because I pay most of Kid's extracurriculars, reconciliation always results in ex owing me money. In the past we have dealt with this by me deducting the amount ex owes me from the offset CS payment by mutual consent.

    The situation: Our order says we reconcile S7 in June. As of now, it hasn't happened. There is no disagreement as to the appropriateness of S7 expenses or about the amount ex owes me, which is less than $100. However ex says he is not going to pay me this time, because reasons.

    The context: In June we had a disagreement about how to calculate the income ratio for S7. Our calculations differed by half of a percentage point, if anyone cares to read about it just search an earlier thread from me about how to round numbers. We arrived at a compromise which gave neither of us exactly what we wanted but which both of us could agree to. Ex is still mad about this.

    Ex says, in pretty much exactly these words, that he is not going to pay me his share of S7 because he believes I will not pay for Kid's after-school care in the fall and so he is justified in not reimbursing me for my S7 expenditures. He has also said that he is holding back S7 because I "do not respect our agreement", but has given no explanation about what is not being respected. If this sounds crazy, it's because it is. I might add that I have always paid S3 and S7 on the day and to the penny, and have also always paid Kid's out of school care costs fully and promptly.

    I suspect the real issue is that he is broke and still angry. His stated reasons make no sense.

    I have said (repeatedly) that I am willing to discuss his concerns, whatever they may be, but that refusing to pay S7 is not an option. I have asked if he would prefer to have me deduct from S3 as in the past, or give me a cheque, or suggest some other payment option. In return, I've gotten a stream of insults and vulgarities. Apparently I have been turning Kid's caregivers against him, fabricating emails, trying to take his money, lying to everyone, and am too stupid to do math, as well as being prissy because I object to being addressed with four-letter words.

    The amounts involved are not great - he owes me less than $100 - but it's one of these don't-give-an-inch situations. I have learned from experience that if I give in on anything to keep the peace, it just encourages the crazy.

    The question: what kind of trouble would I have if I just went ahead and deducted his share of S7 from upcoming S3 payments? I know that mixing CS and extraordinary expenses is considered a no-no, but I'm wondering if it might be justifiable in this case because we have a precedent for reconciling this way, and we agree that he owes me the money. He just refuses to give me the money because, again, reasons.

    Opinions? Or other options which I may not have thought of?

  • #2
    You go girl. Deduct it.

    I don't know shit about child support stuff but can't you go through MEP?

    Life is too short to deal with aholes like this. Pay what you think is correct and let the MEP people deal with him.

    What an idiot! Don't engage. If you go through MEP you don't have this carp to deal with.

    Comment


    • #3
      OP....having read all that, it will seem that your ex is definitely angry about something else which you haven't mentioned here, considering you 2 have 50-50 and you are the payor.

      You are right that you CAN NOT deduct from child support payment to make up for deficeit in S.7 costs.

      Option: If you 2 have agreed to certain extracurricular activities, before & after program....why not individually then pay the providers? That way your ex doesn't think you are trying to pull a fast one?

      When it comes to S.7 in our case (am the payor), this issue is non-existence as we both personally sign up for activities, and all the other parent has to do inform ahead of time and make themselves avail during their parenting time. After school is paid by the parent who's week it is.

      Medical, dental and the like is covered by me due to having a better coverage. Summer camps work the same way, and so does any school meals.

      It's petty fighting over a minimal fee on a monthly basis, especially when you know a positive outcome is a wishful thinking.

      Good luck

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      • #4
        Do you pay him for daycare in the fall? If so can you take it off that?

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        • #5
          Rockscan - we both lay our share of child care directly to the provider. I used to pay it and then get reimbursed by him, but that led to so much hassle that we switched to direct payment.

          Everafter: I'm sure he's angry about something. I think it's because he had to compromise on the S7 ratio going forward, but it could be because his car has been repoed, a dog bit him, or because the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars. Whatever. If it's something related to Kid, I've said repeatedly that I'm willing to talk about it, in person or with a mediator. But the replies I get are just rants about what a terrible person I am.

          The closest I've gotten to an explanation for why he won't pay his share of last year's S7 is "because I think you might not pay [childcare provider] in the fall so I am holding back the money in case I need it".

          I've said at least three times that refusing to pay agreed-on S7 expenses is not an option, and asked if he has a preference for how to pay it: deduction from S3 as we've done in the past, giving me a cheque, or some other form of payment. I've gotten no reply.

          Given that there's no disagreement about whether he owes me the money or about the amount owing, that I've given him ample time to let me know how he's going to pay, and that we've used S3 deduction the last couple of reconciliations, I am still thinking about just deducing from S3 in September. He will have a fit, but he will have a fit no matter what I do.

          Long term, I suspect the only way to stop this nonsense from repeating is to get on MEP. I'm going to call them this morning to see if our order is adequate for them to enforce. It just says that we pay each other offset CS and share S7 proportionate to income, with income recalculated every year, but it doesn't have dollar amounts written in. I need to find out whether MEP can perform the yearly calculations with our financial info or whether I would need to resubmit something every year. I would gladly pay my offset CS through MEP just so I don't have to go through this again and again over trivial amounts of money. If he has a problem, he can take it up with them.

          I'm rambling a bit here - thanks to anyone who read this far!

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          • #6
            If youve done it before I cant see why you cant do it again!

            MEP is better than FRO from what I understand so might be easier. Prepare for THAT ranting email though!

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            • #7
              I think fighting(thinking about) less than 100$ is stupid.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Links17 View Post
                I think fighting(thinking about) less than 100$ is stupid.
                I agree. That's why I hope I can get this order registered with MEP, so S3 and S7 can go through them and I don't have to waste time dealing with this stuff in the future. There's no disagreement about whether or not he owes me money or about the amount owed - there's just the refusal to pay, because, as I said, reasons.

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                • #9
                  I totally get the fighting over a couple of bucks though. Especially with your ex. Giving in gives him an inflated sense of self righteousness and just creates more problems down the road.

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                  • #10
                    ^^^ unfortunately yes. I gave in on a few things early in, in order to keep the peace, and the response was "at least you've acknowledged how wrong you were about a, b, and c; and you are also completely wrong about x,y, and z". If I give in more, it just feeds his conviction that he is always right and I am always wrong, and that in turn fuels the crazy. There's no concept of a truce, or that not everything is about being right or wrong.

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                    • #11
                      We should introduce your ex to my partners ex. Poor math skills, unwillingness to work together, irrational and unreasonable...they have so much in common!

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                      • #12
                        We get nickel'd and dime'd all the time. This school year the ex refused to pay for common field trips (cost of $10) she actually wrote in child's agenda, Dad will pay for it and I will pay him back.

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                        • #13
                          I wouldn't hold out much hope that MEP will be helpful. If they can't wrap their minds around offset CS, the moving target of s7 will be over their heads too.

                          I would just subtract the amount owed from your offset payment until things are even. Clearly document all your calculations and remind him of the precedent set when you did this last time. Refer clearly to your agreement and to the exchange of emails where you settled on those ratios, and when he agreed that the expense in question was s7.

                          If he wants to be difficult, you have to be firm but fair right back at him. Then if anyone is taking the other to court, it's him initiating it, not you. He seems like he's all bluster and bullying you into complying with him, but he may cave in when he would have to pull the same performance for a judge.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would agree, you should never mix CS with S.7. however you have little alternative short of going to court.

                            I am in the same boat myself. 50/50 but I am the support payor. I've been told numerous times that FRO will NOT enforce S.7. expenses on my behalf because I am the support payor, they will only enforce for my EX. If I need to get enforcement, then I must seek a separate enforcement order where my EX is listed as the payor. It's sad really as I pay a fairly significant amount in offset child support and my ex refuses to pay for absolutely any expense regardless of how trivial it is. We were both paying the providers at the offset %, however EX refused to pay them directly, basically trying to manipulate getting more money for non-legitimate expenses un-related.

                            If you approach is in a fair and rational way, then I think you would be well served before a judge should you get blamed for bad conduct (i.e. deducting S.7. from CS)

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                            • #15
                              Well, for anyone following this thread, I had an appointment with MEP today to inquire about having all S3 and S7 payments go through them (and spare me some of the crazy), and here is what I learned:

                              1. (I know this is old news) MEP will only enforce dollar amounts which are specified in your order. So if your order contains dollar amounts which were current at the time it was signed, but are now out of date, you have a problem. For example my order is several years old. It says that both parties will pay each other CS corresponding to their guidelines incomes to be adjusted every year, but then says "in 20xx, the offset amount was $yy". MEP will only collect $zz even though several years have gone by, our incomes have changed, and the offset I'm now paying is $yy.

                              2. HOWEVER, if you have an order as in #1, with outdated dollar amounts, you can either go back to a lawyer to have your order updated every year (expensive and a hassle), or you can ask the Recalculation Programme to recalculate the amounts for you each year. (https://justice.alberta.ca/programs_...s/default.aspx). The Recalculation Programme takes annual financial income and calculates what the offset amount should be and what the S7 ratio should be. They send this information to the Enforcement part of MEP, who update your file and then collect money accordingly. This costs $75 per year, which is still cheaper than having a lawyer redraft the order every year. Recalculation will only accept orders which meet certain criteria - see their website.

                              3. (This is was news to me) MEP considers it okay to use S3 to balance S7. In my situation (ex won't pay legit S7 costs), the MEP staff person said what if my order was registered with them, they would deduct the amount he owes me for S7 from the amount they collect from me for S3. They consider S3 and S7 to be part of one financial package, not two separate money transfer streams. I asked if it was legal for me to do that myself (deduct outstanding S7 from S3 payments), and she said she didn't see why not.

                              4. 2. MEP has trouble with the concept of offset - they divide clients into two categories, debtors and creditors, and the idea that someone might be both (as in a shared parenting situation in which each parent both pays and receives CS) is confusing. For clarity, they consider that the person who has the higher income and therefore pays the net amount of the offset is the debtor and the person with the lower income is the creditor. However, it takes a bit of talking to get to this point.

                              So - it sounds like it would be possible to get my order enforced by MEP although I would have to go through the recalculation process first. There are a fair number of administrative headaches involved, and the ex would have to provide his financial information to recalculate (which I'm sure he would love to do). I am still undecided as to whether the hassles of registering with MEP are greater than the hassles of continuing to deal with the ex.

                              Comment

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