Originally posted by stripes
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Thoughts on hiring a private investigator
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A PI *may* be able to do some digging on the BF's documents that would tell you if hes using that address. His drivers license, health card, bills etc. BUT she could argue he lives there and is not an equivalent to spouse. She may have to argue the rent question which may factor into support.
I had a PI do some background searching on a former tenant to get info for a garnishment order. It took him almost a week and all I had was a plate number and out of province license number but he got some good info that helped me out for my documents. He probably would have charged $50 an hour (hes a friend which was why it took so long--it was free).
It doesnt hurt to call a couple of investigators and see what info they can find and how long it would take them. The address info would be effective in that if she claims hes not her partner, he just lives there, it would be a question of rent payments and thats income yes?
Calls are free. Getting the info costs money. Using the info is a different case.
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So do you even know what your spousal support Order is based upon? Compensatory for her giving up a career in lieu of being stay-at-home parent?
You have to 'walk before you run.' Understanding your own SS Order is a good start. Is there an end date or simply a review date (typically after 5 years)? If there is a review date and you want to challenge it then you have to show a material change of circumstances. Has your lawyer explained this to you?
Is 'cohabitation' specified in your agreement for grounds for material change of circumstances/termination of SS?
There was a regular poster on this forum a few years back who's ex moved in with a multi-millionaire. He still had to pay substantial child support as well as spousal support (compensatory).
Keep in mind that there are many lawyers out there who encourage their clients to keep up the fight. Fighting clients make for excellent sources of continual revenue. And yes the clients swear their lawyers are excellent listeners who really care.
You'd probably be better off moving if your ex's daily activities are bothering you. I'm sure your response will be that you live there for the benefit of the children.
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Originally posted by arabian View PostSo do you even know what your spousal support Order is based upon? Compensatory for her giving up a career in lieu of being stay-at-home parent?
You have to 'walk before you run.' Understanding your own SS Order is a good start. Is there an end date or simply a review date (typically after 5 years)? If there is a review date and you want to challenge it then you have to show a material change of circumstances. Has your lawyer explained this to you?
Is 'cohabitation' specified in your agreement for grounds for material change of circumstances/termination of SS?
There was a regular poster on this forum a few years back who's ex moved in with a multi-millionaire. He still had to pay substantial child support as well as spousal support (compensatory).
Keep in mind that there are many lawyers out there who encourage their clients to keep up the fight. Fighting clients make for excellent sources of continual revenue. And yes the clients swear their lawyers are excellent listeners who really care.
^^^what Arabian said. Knowing exactly what is in your divorce order is the first step. It may not be realistic to expect that you can reduce SS because her boyfriend moved in, given the wording of the order. Cohabitation is not a magic bullet, despite what your lawyer may tell you. If you want to provide that wording (with identifying details removed), some of us can have a go at it, bearing in mind that we are random strangers on the internet and not legal experts.
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A few things.
You have a Spousal Support Agreement NOT an order, correct?
The agreement is the word of God. You can ONLY overturn the agreement if something occurs which could NOT have been foreseen at the time of the agreement.
All the other discussions about compensatory and not are irrelevant here.
The judge will look at the agreement and ask if the agreement allows him to take any action and based on what you've said here I would say no.
Furthermore, the language of the purpose of review is probably relevant but you need to include that here for better analysis.
Consider this also, your spousal support is tax deductible.
The PI along with all the follow up is 50/50... you may win or not but you WILL pay.
I might consider if I were you to get the PI and send her the PI's report and then threaten to file or actually file a motion.
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Originally posted by Links17 View PostA few things.
You have a Spousal Support Agreement NOT an order, correct?
Originally posted by Links17 View PostThe agreement is the word of God. You can ONLY overturn the agreement if something occurs which could NOT have been foreseen at the time of the agreement.
Originally posted by Links17 View PostThe judge will look at the agreement and ask if the agreement allows him to take any action and based on what you've said here I would say no.
Originally posted by Links17 View PostFurthermore, the language of the purpose of review is probably relevant but you need to include that here for better analysis.
Originally posted by Links17 View PostI might consider if I were you to get the PI and send her the PI's report and then threaten to file or actually file a motion.
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Wording in my Separation Agreement
Here are the relevant specifics of my SA with regard to spousal support. Note that the date for the review has long since passed.
(1) The spousal support amount of 1500/month will be fixed and non-variable until (date). Neither party may seek a review of the spousal support arrangements until (date), in any circumstance, foreseeable or not foreseeable.
(2) Either party may initiate a review of spousal support after (date) with any new spousal support payment to be effective as of (date). The review will address all issues relating to spousal support including quantum, duration, entitlement if raised, insurance and any other corollary issues
(3) For the purposes of a review of spousal support, the parties will exchange financial information for the previous two year period, including tax returns that have not already been provided.
(4) If the parties cannot agree on appropriate spousal support at the time of the review, they will use the section of this Agreement entitled "Dispute Resolution" to resolve the issue. The parties will do all that is necessary to ensure that the review process is completed by the end of (date).
(5) Ex will use her best efforts to obtain employment by the time of the spousal support review. The efforts that Ex. has made towards obtaining employment, and Ex's overall circumstances at that time and since the date of separation will be considered at the time of review.
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Originally posted by arabian View PostSo do you even know what your spousal support Order is based upon? Compensatory for her giving up a career in lieu of being stay-at-home parent?.
Originally posted by arabian View PostYou have to 'walk before you run.' Understanding your own SS Order is a good start. Is there an end date or simply a review date (typically after 5 years)? If there is a review date and you want to challenge it then you have to show a material change of circumstances. Has your lawyer explained this to you?
Originally posted by arabian View PostIs 'cohabitation' specified in your agreement for grounds for material change of circumstances/termination of SS?
Originally posted by arabian View PostKeep in mind that there are many lawyers out there who encourage their clients to keep up the fight. Fighting clients make for excellent sources of continual revenue. And yes the clients swear their lawyers are excellent listeners who really care.
Originally posted by arabian View PostYou'd probably be better off moving if your ex's daily activities are bothering you. I'm sure your response will be that you live there for the benefit of the children.
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Originally posted by stripes View Post^^^what Arabian said. Knowing exactly what is in your divorce order is the first step. It may not be realistic to expect that you can reduce SS because her boyfriend moved in, given the wording of the order. Cohabitation is not a magic bullet, despite what your lawyer may tell you. If you want to provide that wording (with identifying details removed), some of us can have a go at it, bearing in mind that we are random strangers on the internet and not legal experts.
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There's no mention in the order of cohabitation, so I think that's probably a non-starter. The order is pretty vague, which sucks because it's up to lawyers and judges to decide what is or is not relevant here.
The one circumstance that is specifically named as relevant is ex's efforts to find employment, so that is where I would start. That's the only thing that her lawyer can't claim is irrelevant. It's a good starting point for a step-down: she's had two years to get ready for the workforce, so it's now appropriate to incentivize her to find work by gradually reducing her spousal support.
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How long was this marriage?
How much do you make now?
(5) Ex will use her best efforts to obtain employment by the time of the spousal support review. The efforts that Ex. has made towards obtaining employment, and Ex's overall circumstances at that time and since the date of separation will be considered at the time of review.
There is a special phrase here which is your secret weapon:
Ex will use her best efforts to obtain employment
However BEST EFFORTS is a legal phrase which means you will take every measure possible to find a job.
That being said, there isn't a direct consequence for her failure to do so - so unless there is something more in the agreement you only have half the goods but it is still good enough imo to do some damage.
I think getting SS reduced by 50% is possible and a term.
Go for the PI too
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Actually I think the agreement is much more specific than I had anticipated. It sets out specific dates of review which are important. Agreement also states employment efforts by ex will be considered at time of review (which is more than many people have on their agreements). Also there is specific reference to a dispute resolution process to be used if agreement is not reached. So forget about court at this time. A judge will not consider the matter until dispute resolution has been exhausted.
Depending upon the dispute resolution process you might save yourself some coin by forgoing the PI at this time. Is it really necessary or relevant?
As far as I can see it has the makings of a do-over for spousal support. Because it makes specific reference to your ex's employment it's better than a do-over in some ways because it implies that employment is essential. There is also mention of 'entitlement.'
I think the wording is far from vague and actually leads the reader to the conclusion that SS is certainly not anticipated to be indefinite by any means. Your ex will have to prove entitlement and account for what she has been doing for the past xxx number of years to ready herself for employment/self-sufficiency.
I would most definitely get ready to have income imputed on an increasing scale , retroactive to date of review (she'll disagree with that most definitely however you don't get if you don't ask). Too bad you weren't all over this at time of review specified in agreement.
I agree with Stripes in that you should focus on the self-sufficiency and less on the cohabitation (like who cares .. petty).
Get the spousal support combined with the imputed income for purposes of determining child support?
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I just looked back at a few of your posts to refresh my memory.
You were married for 11 years. Your SS could be reviewed in 2013 but you did not have a review correct? So you have been paying SS for 4 years now?
Care to elaborate on your dispute resolution clause?
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