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  • Section 7s as a percentage

    Hi there. After many lawyer and court screw ups, I finally got a final order from an uncontested trial. It was actually endorsed October 2016 and I just got it back in August 2018 and it was lost twice, so FRO just got it the other day. They said it could take 4-8 weeks to have it looked over and approved. My ex is currently $7500 in a arrears (will be $55000 when the new order takes effect), which FRO isn't even trying to get back, aside from a federal deduction notice.

    The final order states my ex has to pay 81% of section 7's. My daughter is getting braces put on next month to the tune of $6400. My ex never paid a penny towards my son's but now I have this order. Yesterday after reading, I found out FRO will not enforce an order based on percentage, because apparently using a calculator is too difficult. So, my question is, how do I submit what he owes for the braces? Do I have to go back to court once I've paid for the whole thing and have an order based on a dollar amount? I have to take out a line of credit to pay the ortho and I don't find that very fair, considering now I'll have pay interest.

    Why do judges make orders with percentage amounts enforceable through FRO, if FRO won't enforce it? It's been a really frustrating few years Thanks for an information you may have.

  • #2
    Yes it’s really frustrating. My Lawyer has advised a court order should say $ amounts. Which I agree sucks because they change each year.

    I was told to get a clause added that says what expenses are to be paid and the % and a payment timeline. Such as 30 days after receipt is submitted to payor. That way if they don’t pay you can bring a contempt motion. But I’m not there yet. That’s just what I was told.


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    • #3
      You can file a statement of arrears with FRO with a copy of the page from your agreement as well as the calculation of the amount he owes. You would need to subtract the tax deduction though. If you go in one of the online tax programs you can enter all your info and then the braces amount. See what the difference is with the braces and without and that is your tax deduction.

      Does he have benefits you can submit them to? If he has provided you with that info you may be able to do that and have them pay the dentist directly.

      I should note though that he could reject the expense submitted to FRO but he would need to prove why.

      Don’t get too upset about the limits of FRO. He won’t be able to renew his license which may spur him to do something and they may be able to put a lien against any assets he has. Eventually it will be collected. My father was still subject to a deduction order until he was 78!

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      • #4
        I tried this. Statement of arrears. Sent invoices. Did the calculations. I was told the same thing from fro. Order needs $ amounts. They denied the arrears statement.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mom 2 Two View Post
          I tried this. Statement of arrears. Sent invoices. Did the calculations. I was told the same thing from fro. Order needs $ amounts. They denied the arrears statement.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


          They must have changed it then. My partner was sent one in 2014. He rejected it because it wasn’t calculated properly.

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          • #6
            Section 7s as a percentage

            Originally posted by rockscan View Post
            They must have changed it then. My partner was sent one in 2014. He rejected it because it wasn’t calculated properly.


            Well I will say that my agreement didn’t have the actual % written out. It just said shared.

            But I also belong to a FRO group on Facebook and someone just complained of this.

            FROSTRATED... by all means try the arrears statement Rockscan is suggesting. I find that it depends on who gets your paperwork over there as well if its processed.

            Took about 3 weeks from the time I submitted the arrears statement to get a letter back saying it was denied. I also sent the paperwork registered mail. It’s definitely worth a try to see if they accept it for sure!!


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            Last edited by Mom 2 Two; 04-03-2019, 10:10 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mom 2 Two View Post
              I tried this. Statement of arrears. Sent invoices. Did the calculations. I was told the same thing from fro. Order needs $ amounts. They denied the arrears statement.


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              Our agreement has percentages for S7.

              "The following expenses (and a list of approved expenses) will be paid in proportion to income of the parents with p1 paying xx% and p2 paying xx%. p1 will reimburse p2 within 30 days of receiving proof of payment"

              I submitted by fax the receipts and a spreadsheet with the calculation and filled in the statement of arrears with the amount owing and it was approved. If the payor refused the expenses I never heard about it. It was on my account within 6 weeks.

              FRO has denied medical expenses, so far, because our agreement states the balance not covered by the medical benefit plan is to be divided xx/xx. The other parent has refused to provide/submit the kids expenses to the benefit plan (despite two court orders telling him to do so) so we don't know the amount that's left to divide. I've been paying out of pocket for 4 years and it's adding up so we'll have to return to court once again to get the language of the order changed so I can get these enforced.

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              • #8
                Thanks that’s awesome!! I may steal that blurb for my offer to settle.

                I just find fro is not standard across the board.
                I hope this helps you Frostrated!!

                Thanks Mom2teenboys


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Frostrated View Post
                  Yesterday after reading, I found out FRO will not enforce an order based on percentage, because apparently using a calculator is too difficult.
                  To be fair, it is a complicated calculation. They need to figure out what your benefits cover, what his benefits cover, and any tax deductions that could result from the expense to figure out the net expense.

                  Then they get to whip out the calculator.

                  There is lots of potential for misunderstandings and miscalculations (and fraud). Offhand, I actually agree with FRO in this one, they should not be enforcing percentage orders. Lawyers should know this. Blame your lawyer, not FRO.

                  Let your ex know that if he does not pay now, that you will be taking out a loan, and that he will be responsible for the interest that accrues until he pays it off. Then you go to court and get your interest payments back, along with your court costs assuming he is dumb enough to not comply on consent.

                  You only have to do this once. It will cost him so much more that he will never take this route again.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Janus View Post
                    ....

                    There is lots of potential for misunderstandings and miscalculations (and fraud). Offhand, I actually agree with FRO in this one, they should not be enforcing percentage orders. Lawyers should know this. Blame your lawyer, not FRO.
                    ....
                    What SHOULD an order say regarding section 7 expenses?


                    For example: Right now- in the offer we're drafting- my lawyer lists exactly what section 7 is: pre-school tuition, before and afterschool care, medicated creams not covered by insurance and two activities- with each parent choosing one. BUT the costs are listed as a percentage. What should it say instead?
                    Last edited by iona6656; 04-03-2019, 03:18 PM.

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                    • #11
                      FRO assumes you get a new order every year. Most people don’t. The FCSG assume people follow the law. Most people don’t. Judges think they do it right in orders and everyone will follow them. Most...well you get my point.

                      The problem with section 7 is that there is no way to actually make them happen even with the law. Why?

                      1. Not everyone will pay/sign up for benefits.
                      2. Not everyone agrees on what a s7 is.
                      3. There is no automatic way to enforce them.

                      My partners agreement says he will sign up for benefits if they are available (nothing about cost so he pays for them), that section 7 expenses will be agreed upon in advance (ex unilaterally decides), that receipts will be provided immediately (ex waits a year or more to send meaning they are not accepted by benefits provider), and the net cost will be split (she disagrees with taking tax deduction off) according to their incomes (the dreaded percentage).

                      His ex originally requested a set percentage for s7 including things that are not s7 and assuming an inflated cost for things. His lawyer said no.

                      Section 7 expenses wording is the most bullshit and difficult thing in any agreement. Unless you update yearly with a mtc on agreement, you cant do anything. If FRO could enforce this stuff, it wouldn’t actually be needed. Since they have to enforce it, they should have their own judicial party who looks at the incomes and just rubber stamps it.

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                      • #12
                        Thank you everyone! I don't go after a lot in the way of section 7 expenses because I know it's a pain, but $6400 is a lot of money and I already paid for one set. My lawyer didn't actually ask for a percentage, he asked for it to be tacked onto my my child support, but the judge ordered a lot more and included post-secondary tuition. He does not have benefits as far as I know. He likes to work contract and move around so I never know where he's at. I do have benefits and they'll cover $1600 of it. I guess I'll try the arrears method and show them how I calculated it and see. If not, I'll have my lawyer file a motion.

                        I'm just annoyed because FRO is so inconsistent. One case worker will file a bunch of action against him, and another one will lecture me that all they can do it garnish half his pay, even when I tell them that he double invoices them.

                        I appreciate all the suggestions!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by iona6656 View Post
                          What SHOULD an order say regarding section 7 expenses?


                          For example: Right now- in the offer we're drafting- my lawyer lists exactly what section 7 is: pre-school tuition, before and afterschool care, medicated creams not covered by insurance and two activities- with each parent choosing one. BUT the costs are listed as a percentage. What should it say instead?

                          Offhand, if you are doing a S7 order on consent, then percentages should be fine, just recognize that they will not be enforced by FRO.

                          If you suspect that you will be using FRO to collect S7 expenses, then try to estimate the amount per year, and ask for a specific amount every month. For example, if historically the yearly contribution of your ex should have been about $3000, then ask for an S7 amount of $200 per month. You get a bit less than you should, but you save yourself a massive headache. Totally worth it.

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                          • #14
                            Section 7s as a percentage

                            Originally posted by Janus View Post
                            Offhand, if you are doing a S7 order on consent, then percentages should be fine, just recognize that they will not be enforced by FRO.



                            If you suspect that you will be using FRO to collect S7 expenses, then try to estimate the amount per year, and ask for a specific amount every month. For example, if historically the yearly contribution of your ex should have been about $3000, then ask for an S7 amount of $200 per month. You get a bit less than you should, but you save yourself a massive headache. Totally worth it.


                            So I will need FRO to collect the S7’s for sure. Ex hasn’t paid a dime for the last year or any this year hence why we are in court.

                            This way means if the child gets older and braces are needed or therapy or something is needed it won’t be covered right?

                            It’s weird as some people say fro has enforced the percentages but others it hasn’t. So frustrating.

                            Is it better to have the clause “payor should pay within 30 days of receipt submitted to these xxx agreed upon expenses” Then If they don’t pay from that order you file contempt?


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                            • #15
                              I’ve been with FRO for a number of years and I’ve never had an issue with claiming S7 expenses. My order is clear what the % is with no reference to dollar amount. I print the receipt that shows what it is and total amount paid, hand write the calculation out on the receipt, attach it to the statement of arrears, then get it commissioned and send through One Key online to Fro. With childcare he is to pay me direct within 30 days of me notifying him of his portion due. He’s currently overdue a number of months so I called FRO amd they told me to send the receipts in with a statement of arrears form and copies of the emails I sent him each time I emailed him a receipt as proof that it’s overdue. They said they will collect on my behalf since he failed to abide by the court order in paying me direct.

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