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  • how to deal with financial negotiations

    I'm currently negotiating with my ex-wife for the separation agreement.

    We have shared custody, therefor the amount that I owe her is significantly lower then what I would owe her if she had full custody. All of her friends and family think she should take me to the cleaner, and because she's heard it so many times, she thinks it's her right to get more money from me. The recent proposal she sent, she would earn 51% of our combined salary. I would hand over 30% of my income, before taxes, so roughly half of my net income to her.

    I've tried to reason with her, I've given her the child support guidelines book, and highlighted my arguments. My first offer was the bare minimum from the guidelines, and, I've brought it up since then a bit. But, we're so far apart.

    To date, our relationship as co-parent has been superb mostly. We've been able to seperate the financial haggling with the parenting aspect, and able to work great together for our daughter.

    has anyone gone through this? I'm afraid we'll really butt heads and go off to court. Neither one of us has the money to go to court, so we'll end up with nothing. And, it might completly ruin our relationship for ever, and our daughter will be harmed if this happens.

  • #2
    if you are talking about CS then the guideline amount is what she gets. Unless you make a HUGE wage that is not on the chart, it is unlikely that a court would award her more. Her lawyer should know this.

    Have you tried mediation. If you've worked everything else out it sounds like you would be a good candidate.

    Comment


    • #3
      She spoken to two lawyers. The first one's advice "don't negotiate with him, take him to court. You deserve much more" gee, thanks. She was calculating for full custody.

      The second one, is slightly better, but still so far apart.

      We're a few thousand off in the asset division, I am ready to give her that. I won't go to court for that. But, she's asking a lot for SS, and I can't give her that. I would go bankrupt so quickly.

      I've given her the child support guidelines, and the tables. I've highlights the right lines, the amounts everything.

      I get yelled at for being unreasonable, not sure what else to do, other then go to court.

      Comment


      • #4
        Not just CS these days, spousal in there too.

        I understand your concern, however the law seems to have swung way over to equalize incomes which means you would pay the Child support guidelines, and whatever the spousal support guidelines state as well up to 50% of your income for that alone. Athough judges do not have to use these SS rules, as they are not law yet, they do use them as guidelines. You should look on the web to see what you would owe in CS according to the grid, and then if she makes less than you, based on how long you were married, the courts will add on more for spousal. Generally speaking, if you are sharing custody then they would aim to make your incomes equal, whether you can live on whats left or not. Trust me judges seem to ignore the idea that the higher income earner may actually need more money to earn a living, and they don't get accountants involved to ensure their judgements are sustainable. If you can avoid court do so at all costs. Lawyers ask for all your financials to see how much they can squander before they force you to settle. If you go to trial, the costs are enormous and the outcome rarely judicious. Its russian roulette, and generally succeeds in alienating the ex partners and traumatizing the child.
        Try mediation, that might be a better idea, and get an accountant involved who can demonstrate your need for an income to support your employment expenses.
        Good luck.

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        • #5
          I sent her a note, basically said to show me how her child support calculations were reasonable, and if they were, I'd sign it off.

          Our gross salary is divided me-70%, her - 30% roughly.

          My offer has always been to bring her up to 42% of our combined salary.

          Her counter offer was to bring her salary up to 58% of our combined salaries. This is after CS, SS, all government benefits and tax credits and special expenses are taken care of.

          I've told her that with her proposal, she would make more then me. Her reply was "tough luck".

          And, she's taken it personal, she got mad and insulted, so it went downhill from there a bit. I'm afraid that it's slowly affecting our relationship and that because of all this, we will have trouble staying friendly.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Foredeck View Post
            My offer has always been to bring her up to 42% of our combined salary.

            Her counter offer was to bring her salary up to 58% of our combined salaries. This is after CS, SS, all government benefits and tax credits and special expenses are taken care of.

            I've told her that with her proposal, she would make more then me. Her reply was "tough luck".
            This kind of thing really bugs me. Why is it that one parent, who earns more (and often works harder) than another parent isn't allowed to enjoy the lifestyle they work hard to obtain? I agree with equalizing the kids' households to some extent, but when the kids see one parent working, the other loafing, but both enjoying the same lifestyle then how will they learn the value of ambition and a good job? Kids learn by observing and welfare kids grow up to be welfare adults.

            What do they see as the "cause and effect" of ambition or laziness? If there is no incentive for a parent to work hard then why would they? Some people feel they are "entitled" to a lifestyle wheather they have worked for it or not, and having an ambitious, hard-working ex is a fantastic way to get it.

            I was in the same position as you were, but in my case, I was offering full 50/50 equalization (close to table amounts anyway) and my ex was demanding more. In our last case conference the judge ended up awarding me costs for that CC partly because it should have been resolved at 50/50 before the CC even happened. How much fairer can you be than 50/50?

            The funny thing is... My ex worked pretty hard at being a "professional recipient", without being able to hold down any other job

            DD

            Comment


            • #7
              The thing that really pisses me off is that all her friends and family are pressuring her to go for as much money as she can. These people have no idea what the law is, they've never read anything in regards to this. And, they have no idea how much money either of us make, or anything else.

              Also, she went to two lawyers, and I think my ex did not give all the information, she felt over her head, so she gave her the file and said deal with it. But, the first lawyer said "take him to court, he's too stubborn to even try to negotiate" and the second lawyer made a counter proposal that is just outrageous.

              How is this system trying to make a better world for children of divorced families. Without these two factors, our daughter would have had two parents who liked each other, were still friends and still working together. Now, at best, one parent will be resentful and at worse, we'll be forced to go to full custody either way.

              Comment


              • #8
                She cannot expect to get ANYTHING mare than 50%. Why should you give her MORE than 50% of the family income? It just doesn't make sense.

                Would it be too hard for you to offer a little more, maybe to equalize to about 48%? Has your lawyer invited her to mediation?

                I can't see why a court would award her anything more than 50% And I think if you can show you have been reasonable that she would be penalized on this, probably have to pay your costs. Make sure you can show all the efforts you've made to negotiate, then file with the court. You've wasted enough time being nice, now it's time to do what is right for all of you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The first offer was low. Nobody makes their best offer on the first time. Maybe it should have been slightly higher, maybe not. I'm not really a pro at negotiating separation agreements.

                  I was ready to increase it slightly, and have told her so. Told her to review it, and come back with a reasonable counter offer and we'll see how close it is.

                  I'd send her e-mails, asking her to discuss it. Most replies would be one worded "whatever" or "stop talking to me, it's almost over"

                  I really don't feel like airing our dirty laundry. Most of my arguments will be pretty bad. I was the main bread winner in the relationship, and I don't regret it. However, I would want that to be acknowledged. And, a lot of people, including my ex, would be severely offended by most of my arguments.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Found out that she's still mad and blaming me for the breakdown.

                    She's finding it tough on her own. Since I made more, her standard of living was above her pay scale. It brought her down, and she expects me to allow her to keep going.

                    I told her it was partially my fault, I was ready to accept half the blame.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      At the end of the day, in almost every situation all parties are worse off financially after a divorce. Especially the breadwinner if the wife has never worked and there are children involved. It would be good for you to investigate case law to see what precedents have been set, and understand the spousal support guideline fully before final negotiations. Given the fact that court frequently financially ruins divorcing couples, perhaps understanding that you will all be worse off in the end, would encourage you to try to reconcile. Trust me its the best choice when there are children involved for all parties concerned.
                      Unfortunately there are many cases where breadwinners are left with a pittance to live on while their ex wives live in relative luxury because the courts have this archaic notion that if you allowed your wife to have a certain standard of living with her not working, you will "have to address it". And if you can't financially handle it, the government has this enforcement arm called FRO, that can take away your license, passport, and throw you in jail. (Thats after they take all of your assets, RRSPs,etc. away.)
                      I know that sounds unbelievable but it happens to be true, unfortunately.
                      I hope you can work it out without going to court or better yet for the benefit of your child, reconcile.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As far as I've been informed by my lawyer, SS will be calculated on all money coming in, including govt child benefits that don't show up on line 150, pensions, etc.

                        It will probably be modified according to living expenses. She can't claim 3X the groceries but if she is paying high rent and you are living in your own home, that could be a factor. Just an example.

                        Your offer should compare your after tax income, it should include CS payments to her, it should deduct CS payments from you, it should include Child Tax Credit and other government benefits. You should be looking at your actual disposable income after real living expenses.

                        When you make your offer spell this out, and if you have to go to court, it will be looked at that way.

                        There are other factors she can bring up to try to modify it, like if you have a university education or certified skills and she doesn't, and she can show that being married for X number of years prevented her from finishing education, etc. That is just an example, it won't come down in court to just mathematics, it will include other factors, but you should certainly be making an offer based pure math.

                        If she gets more according to needing upgrading of skills or whatever, you can have this limited to a couple of years. Spousal support wouldn't go on forever, and the courts wouldn't expect you to support her forever, unless she approaching retirement age and you were married 20 years.

                        Why is it that one parent, who earns more (and often works harder) than another parent isn't allowed to enjoy the lifestyle they work hard to obtain?
                        Could you have gotten that promotion if you were forced to cover all 30 of the children's sick days off school each year? Did your career not benefit in any way from the work your wife put into your home and family? If she had stayed single would she not have stayed in the workforce and had some recent work experience, even if unskilled? Wouldn't she be earning more after 10 years in a job than 0 years? Are you actually "working harder" if you have a university degree or skill certification than if you were serving coffee in Tim Horton's? Aren't you just benefiting from a piece of paper that allows you a career?

                        I'm not saying you didn't work to get where you are, but I think you're looking at it a little one sided. There's no difference between a stay-at-home-mum and someone who just got layed off from a GM auto plant last month after 10 years. Neither one is going to walk right into a $40k job tomorrow. It has nothing to do with not working hard.

                        Comment

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