Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > General Chat

General Chat This forum is for discussing anything that doesn't fit into another forum, or for discussing things that are off topic, or just for general venting.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:15 AM
Tayken's Avatar
Tayken Tayken is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,105
Tayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant future
Default Open Letter From a "Divorce Lawyer"

Hi All,

I found this on the internet and thought others would find it interesting. As many of you know I study the conduct of barristers and solicitors in Family Law and their clients. The common patterns of behaviours ("truisms") that often drive high-conflict family law situations. While noodling through some interesting articles (which I will post later) I came across this:

Letter from Lawyer

I am posting the "letter" in full here because it is that brilliant:

Quote:
Dear client:

I am pleased that you have hired me to represent you in your divorce. I'm pleased because I need the money you and others like you pay me. I'm tired of working with people like you who are always fighting and never happy, and often unhappy with me, but I feel trapped now and don't know how I could change my practice at this point in my career without a huge financial setback, so I hang on and do the best job I can, the best way I know, for clients like you.

If you're like most people going through divorce, you've heard a chorus of voices -- from your mother to your neighbor to the person who cuts your hair -- warning that you better get a mean "junkyard dog" lawyer. I don't like being a junkyard dog lawyer, and I don't think it would be in your best interest for me to be, but I have to give you the impression early on that I am so you will hire me. I don't like doing it, but you demand it, so I do it.

That means that when we met in our first consultation, I talked about how experienced I am. I gave you an optimistic assessment of what you would give up and what you would get working with me. If your spouse had come the same day instead of you and presented the very same facts, I would have given your spouse an equally optimistic assessment from their perspective. I learned long ago not to lose any sleep about doing this. You demand it, and I'm going to give it to you so you will hire me.

You can see what happened now, can't you? I gave you an optimistic assessment of your case from your perspective, then one of my colleagues gave your spouse an optimistic assessment of the case from your spouse's perspective. Together, we worked knowingly or unknowingly to convince both of you that the other is being unreasonable and that you each needed us to win you a better deal.

I told you in our initial consultation that you should avoid communicating directly with your spouse about anything other than parenting of your children. I did this because nothing is so important to me as client control. I want to be the gatekeeper of all communications between you and your spouse, so I can decide how much information to provide to you and what "spin" to put on it. This will make you and your spouse more suspicious of each other, and it will make you more dependent on me. I like that, at least in the early stages of divorce negotiations.

I required you to pay a large retainer when you hired me. I told you that I have a fixed retainer for all divorce clients the time I expect to put in, and the risk that my estimates might be too low. In reality, though, my technique for setting your retainer was far simpler: I charged the highest retainer I thought I could get. The reason I did this is that the retainer is often the only money I ever see for representing someone in a divorce case. I may try to bill you and get paid later, but many of my clients don't pay me anything after the initial retainer, even though they owe me a great deal of money, and I hesitate to sue them for fear they will counterclaim for malpractice and drive up my insurance premiums. The fact that I have so much trouble getting clients like you to pay me what they owe me is another reason my work is so unpleasant for me.

I also will work to appear successful. I may drive a luxury car and maintain a sumptuous office, because I want you and my colleagues -- especially my colleagues -- to believe that I am earning lots of money. In one sense, I am earning lots of money. I charge a high hourly rate, and I have a great deal of business, so I have high billings. I also have a high overhead, however, and I have trouble getting paid. In reality, I have financial struggles just like you do.

There's more than a 93% chance that your case will settle before trial. Nevertheless, I will prepare your case as if you were going to trial. This will be wasteful and expensive. I will conduct lengthy discovery, including interrogatories, requests for the production of documents, and depositions, charging you a great deal of money to prepare documents that I simply have printed from my word processor with minor changes.
Continued...
  #2  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:16 AM
Tayken's Avatar
Tayken Tayken is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,105
Tayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
I will do this not because it's in your best interest but because I'm afraid of being embarrassed in front of other lawyers and judges and because I'm afraid you will sue me. The result is that you and/or your spouse will spend a great deal of money preparing for a trial we know will almost certainly not occur. I've heard that much of this could be avoided by simply exchanging documents and affidavits, but that's not what I'm used to doing. If there's a better way, I don't know it, and even if I knew it, I probably wouldn't do it. The way I practice law is what I know and understand, and it's safe for me.

I live my professional life in and around the courthouse. I gauge my schedule and my priorities to make sure cases that have an imminent court date are ready to present. This means that if your case doesn't have an imminent court date, it will be hard to get me to focus much attention on it. Your case will move much more slowly than you would like.

When we are at the courthouse, there will be huge blocks of time when I will leave you alone while I negotiate or just swap stories with your spouse's lawyer. Every now and then, I'll report back to you on progress and tell you how negotiations are going. You probably will find it jarring that I'm so friendly with your spouse's lawyer. Remember, you and I have a temporary relationship.Your spouse's lawyer and I have seen each other several times a week for years, and our relationship will continue long after you're gone from my life. It's not surprising, then, that I'm more attentive to that relationship than I am to the one with you.

Early on in our relationship, you are in emotional distress, you believe that no one in the world has ever faced the problems you are facing, and you view me as a savior who can protect you from all the cruel insults you are facing. Over time, however, you will begin to stabilize emotionally, you will begin to view me and my services more realistically, and you will begin to realize just how expensive all this is becoming. You may begin to resent me, and you may place a lower priority on paying my fee. You will also begin to hold me accountable for producing results that I know are unrealistic.

Although at the outset I stated an optimistic assessment of your case, over the term of our relationship I will become increasingly pessimistic with you about your chances. I will do this because, by then, I will become tired of you and tired of your case. I will want you to become more flexible in negotiations so I can reach an agreement with your spouse and your spouse's lawyer. By then, I will have spent enough time on your case to justify keeping all the retainer, and I will be afraid that I may never see any more money, so I will press you to reach agreement with your spouse.

Also, as our relationship continues, I will be increasingly harder to reach. I may fail to return your phone calls, or I may call you back but be evasive about giving you useful information, always seeming in a hurry. I will do this perhaps without even realizing I'm doing so, primarily because it will be unpleasant for me to deal with you when you become increasingly unhappy.

Often an agreement will happen because you and your spouse meet over the kitchen table or on the phone and work it out, then communicate it to your respective lawyers. This agreement may be remarkably similar to what the two of you could have agreed had you been willing to cooperate with each other at the beginning through mediation or negotiations, but you won't think about that by then, because to do so would be to admit to yourself that you've wasted several thousand dollars on legal fees. Even though I told you at the outset not to talk to your spouse, I will by then be secretly glad that you did and will work to help your agreement succeed (if I can avoid spending much time on it). Remember, by then, I will want out.

I have learned that most of my business comes by referral from other professionals, so it's more important to me that referral sources feel good about me than that clients feel good about me. I devote lots of attention to my relationships with judges, other lawyers, and other professionals. On the other hand, I have over the years become quite comfortable with unhappy clients, even clients who complain about me to the bar association. This bothered me in my early years of practice, but I've become jaded to it now. The bar association knows as I do that clients of divorce lawyers are often unhappy. I know the bar association is accustomed to receiving these complaints and taking them with several grains of salt, so it doesn't worry me much that you might complain about me.

I like you, and I'm a caring professional who wants to do a good job for you. I've learned not to trust you, though. I wish I could trust you, but I've been burned too many times by clients like you. I'm going to keep my guard up. Now that you know the way this works, let's get started.

Sincerely yours,



Your Divorce Lawyer
The follow up letter in next posting...

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #3  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:25 AM
Tayken's Avatar
Tayken Tayken is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,105
Tayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant future
Default

Now... The even more brilliant alternate letter!

Letter Alternate

Quote:
Dear Client:

Now that your divorce has been granted, I wanted to share some observations about the process, our working relationship and the results obtained in light of your expectations and recent complaints:

1 . Our Expectations of You As A Client: When you first came in our office, you certainly presented well and acknowledged your role in causing this divorce. Once we agreed to represent you and you signed the engagement letter, we gave you some information regarding our expectations of you as a client. In short, you were expected to be truthful, prompt in getting us information we requested and it was suggested that you obtain counseling from a qualified and competent psychotherapist because the difficulties you were having with the emotional impact of the divorce. We also asked that you not involve the children in the process and that you not seek and rely upon advice (as opposed to emotional support) of your friends, family members and co‑workers. Unfortunately, you failed to abide by almost all of our suggestions which is one of the many reasons why this case took so long to resolve, why part of the case ultimately needed to be tried and why your fees were much more significant than they ordinarily should have been had you been emotionally stable, cooperative and truthful with us.

2. The Results: Early in the case, we explained the law regarding various aspects of the divorce and we repeatedly discussed the pros and cons of the proposed settlement offered by your spouse given the uncertainties of how our judge would rule on issues of tracing of inherited and gifted property, the date used for valuation of the marital estate, the valuation of your spouse's closely held business, the dissipation of assets leading up to the divorce, alimony and deviation from the child support guidelines. While we were able to settle most of these issues, your insistence that you receive what we told you was an excessive settlement ultimately lead to a trial on certain issues. The fact that the results could potentially be less than what we could have achieved in the way of a settlement was discussed prior to preparing for and appearing at trial.

3. Your Bill: At the outset, we explained to you that the charges you were expected to pay for with our firm would vary greatly, depending upon several factors beyond our control. The complexity of the issues, the attitude of your spouse, the identity of and cooperation received from your spouse's attorney and the judge assigned to the case all make a difference in fees. As you know, we ultimately prepared for trial because the case was not settled and our preparation in advance of the trial date allowed us to negotiate a settlement that was much more favorable on the issues resolved because the other side was not prepared. Our retention of a CPA for advice on tax and valuation aspects also helped us devise a settlement on certain issues that the other side failed to even consider. This process was made more difficult by your spouse's failure to comply with informal discovery requests and, ultimately, formal discovery requests which led to the issuance of an order compelling discovery and the issuance of sanctions against your spouse and your spouse's attorney. All of this takes more time and consequently resulted in higher fees. Despite the fact that we are not a bank and do not "finance" legal matters, as a courtesy to you, we carried your unpaid balance and incurred significant additional charges without being paid until after you received your settlement in the case.

4. Your Behavior: As you know, when we first met, I explained to you the procedures utilized by this office to handle these cases and my reliance on paralegals to keep your costs down and efficiently process information and prepare much of the standardized court filings. However, I also explained to you that the paralegals cannot give legal advice and those types of questions need to be directed to me. Unfortunately, you chose throughout the case to call and seek legal advice from the paralegals (probably in a misguided attempt to save money), became abusive with our office staff on numerous occasions, called me at home on weekends (4 times on one particular Saturday) and evenings over matters ranging from the removal of a lawn mower from the garage to your spouse's choice of movies for the children and made/sent abusive phone calls/e‑mails to your spouse. You also (against our advice) became romantically involved with someone shortly after the case was filed which further angered your spouse and hindered settlement negotiations.

5. Complaint To Bar Association: The recent complaint that you filed with our Bar Association has been received and reviewed by me and a response was sent to the Counsel for Discipline. Although some of my clients are occasionally unhappy, most are gratified by the effort this office puts forth on their behalf. We frequently receive thank you notes and gifts from clients who come to realize that our assistance and dedication was invaluable to them during one of the most difficult and trying times of their lives. While my letter to Counsel for Discipline addresses most of the complaints you had, I note that in ‑your letter to the Bar Association you failed to note a couple of details that do not necessarily pertain to my ethics as a lawyer but do perhaps shed some light on your behavior:

a. Your complaint failed to advise the Bar Association that you threatened to file a complaint against me unless I reduced your bill;

b. Your complaint failed to mention that, following entry of the divorce decree you cleaned out the safety deposit box, vandalized the home and refused to turn over or destroyed personal property, all of which was done without informing me as your lawyer which has now resulted in contempt of court proceedings being instituted against you;

c. On several occasions while in public, you approached me and made overt comments of a sexual nature and at the same time requested that we meet for drinks, which I refused;

d. Without notifying me, you obtained a Protection Order against your spouse after the decree was entered based upon perjured testimony under oath and after dismissing the initial Protection Order as part of our settlement agreement.

There are fewer and fewer lawyers choosing to practice in the domestic relations area because of the demands placed upon them and their staff by clients, the significant exposure to malpractice they have because of the complexity and number of issues which are required to be dealt with in most cases and because many clients like you do not appreciate the effort expended on their behalf in trying to deal with their problems, many of which are created by the client themselves.

Our office wishes you the best of luck in obtaining new counsel in dealing with what will undoubtedly be years of additional bickering with your ex spouse. Our advice to you: Spend the money. Get some help.

Sincerely,

Your Former Divorce Lawyer
Don't be that ^^^^ client!

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #4  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:29 AM
Tayken's Avatar
Tayken Tayken is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,105
Tayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant future
Default

I think my favourite quote about this and the most relevant to this message forum and many of the first-time-posters is when they call and complain...

Quote:
over matters ranging from the removal of a lawn mower from the garage to your spouse's choice of movies for the children and made/sent abusive phone calls/e‑mails to your spouse.
I have seen case file after case file that there are disputes about riding lawn mowers, snow mobiles, and snow blowers. The "movies for children" one is incredibly common. So common that the Honourable Mr. Justice Brownstone calls this one out in detail in his book Tug of War. I am still of the strong opinion that Tug Of War should be mandatory reading as part of the MIP in some way...

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #5  
Old 09-07-2013, 09:24 AM
BitHunter BitHunter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 546
BitHunter is on a distinguished road
Default

Amusing. Mostly I'm glad I don't have a divorce lawyer. The disadvantages of not knowing the law and the exact court rules are dwarfed by the advantages of not paying somebody whose best interests are strongly conflicting with my best interests.
  #6  
Old 09-07-2013, 01:34 PM
mememe mememe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 274
mememe is on a distinguished road
Default

Interesting and I am sure much of it is true and I am sure we all see some of the "client" in us. On the other hand, as a "client" we are held hostage by our lawyers as we are afraid to "challenge their practise", complain about the bill etc. and when we do point out things---they are quick to defend their or their employees behaviour and make it your "fault". I guess that is why they are lawyers. I collected, photocopied, scanned, and documented and then conferred with the legal clerk something that needed to be sent out. All she needed to do was show it to the lawyer and send it out. 4 weeks later, I receive ex's letter reprimanding us for late submission (we have sent them such letters in the past and I wanted to always do things on time in the event we went to court). They were busy my email said and my stuff would be sent out the next day. I waited 3 days--not sent out---so I addressed it. I think I was patient, I think I did most of the work--it just needed to be sent out. I won't tell you my lawyer's response. He did not collect evidence before making judgement. So, there is a lawyer's side--and there is a "rational" client side sometime. We are afraid to complain ---they charge you for complaint time, and there is always the looming notion that they are going to dismiss you as a client. Is there a client letter--that is civil and respectful????
  #7  
Old 09-07-2013, 06:02 PM
arabian's Avatar
arabian arabian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 10,680
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

If these letters were penned by a lawyer then all I can say is that I hope this lawyer is having a nice time in rehab.
  #8  
Old 09-07-2013, 06:53 PM
SadAndTired SadAndTired is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,161
SadAndTired is on a distinguished road
Default

^ I thought the same Arabian. It doesn't read as lawyerish to me either.
  #9  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:12 PM
arabian's Avatar
arabian arabian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 10,680
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

The whole letter was pretty amateurish. Statements about having to impress other lawyers with allusion of being successful with big office was ridiculous as was inane rambling about billing.

Anyone who would hire a wind-bag like this one has to be an idiot. No wonder there is a huge increase in self-representation in family court.

Yikes!
  #10  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:16 PM
arabian's Avatar
arabian arabian is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 10,680
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

Also - I don't know of a family lawyer who feels referrals from other lawyers are more important than referrals through current or past clients. Running a law firm is no different than other businesses who require happy customers. I know my lawyer relies almost exclusively on referrals which come through his clients.
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you go about throwing out some B.S. letter as evidence? CycleDad Divorce & Family Law 5 09-29-2011 01:04 PM
Received a letter from a Family Support Worker Aelon Financial Issues 4 04-07-2011 01:15 PM
is the decision final or biased by letter from lawyer forcedtobemyownlawyer Introductions 4 01-14-2011 10:49 PM
a letter but NO application ???? rustedinnocence Financial Issues 3 09-22-2010 12:12 PM
letter in question momof1 Financial Issues 8 05-11-2006 12:04 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:16 AM.