Counselling?

[Wyntermcd]

So I'm kinda looking for more of a parents perspective on this issue here lol.

Some important details
I'm the step mom (I'm not officially, but that's the bet I can offer, my fiancé has two kids from an ex wife).

For the most, I refrain from involving myself in stuff between him and his exwife. The exception being stuff involving the kids as they are just as much in my care when they are with us (half the time they are with me alone lol just due to crazy work schedules). So I think it's important to be involved and aware of stuff going on with the kids.

Here's the situation. 6 (almost 7) year old daughter throwing insane tantrums. Both with us and when she with her mom who is the CP (we have every other weekend and one night a week, plus whenever our schedules match they come over for some extra time)

When she's with us, we deal with the tantrum, it's resulted in some consequences (one time of writing lines, a time of having a new toy taken away, and the rest just acknowledging and apologizing for the behaviour. We pretty good about being clear and consistent with her and only once have we gotten frustrated or upset and had things go wrong.
I can't say for sure how things go at her moms house, I'm not there obviously but I get the impression that that the child's behaviour is excused, and don't ever see any consequences or accountability when she does stuff. I get the impression that her mom easily gets upset and frustrated and yells during these moments (we've found the child responds better if we talk seriously, not yell).

So her mom wants to take the girl to the children's mental health hospital during these tantrums. She did this once before last year, the person who talked to the child said she was fine, no real issues, and that she's a really strong willed kid. They made arrangements for her and her mom to attend some parenting thing starting in the new year. Her mom never followed through with it at that time.

So now (and here's my question). Her mom says she needs to see a therapist, that her actions and behaviour are beyond what any of us can deal with or resolve. I suggested a parenting course instead for her, to teach her to help manage, prevent and deal with these tantrums. I don't believe the child seeing a therapist will resolve the actual problem.

How do you know if a child needs a psychologist? I don't see the child as actually having an issue that actually really needs a psychologist. Am I wrong? How does a person decide if a kid needs that kind of help? Are there resources we can turn to? I don't have kids of my own yet, so I'm not really sure where to start looking for these kinds of answers lol.

The main thing I'm looking for is obviously the kids best interests, but based on my interactions with the mom, who comes off as a high conflict sort, I'm not convinced that its the kid who has the issue.

[standing on the sidelines]

first off for you to suggest parenting classes to the mother was overstepping the boundries. Its up to the father to talk to the mother about that. Not you.

There is a reason the child is having tantrums. It could deal with the feeling of the loss of control due to her parents splitting up and she is acting out. Yes you may be handling the tantrum, but not the reasons why she is having them. There is nothing wrong with the child seeing someone and finding out the root of the problem.If the person decides that mom and kid would benefit from some sort of therapy together then so be it. I know you said that someone at the childrens hospital said that there was nothing wrong with the child but how many times did they actually see and talk to the child?? Takes a while for a child to feel safe enough with a stranger for them to open up.

[SadAndTired]

Yes you may be handling the tantrum, but not the reasons why she is having them. There is nothing wrong with the child seeing someone and finding out the root of the problem.

Yes, I agree with SOS.

My youngest was 6 when we separated and all sorts of new behaviours resulted. That is the way children process hurt and sadness by acting out their feelings. I think having the child see a psychologist is a terrific idea. Anyone skilled with young children will quickly weed out the differences between issues with the child, the divorce and the Mom. They would have referrals to other agencies that could help. It certainly won't hurt.

The exception being stuff involving the kids as they are just as much in my care when they are with us (half the time they are with me alone lol just due to crazy work schedules).

Since Dad is EOW, this is likely only a few days a month though. It is hard to effect any sort of behaviourial change in such a short time frame and with so much time between visits. Discussing which discipline technique to use is opening too large of a can of worms here on the board. I would suggest picking one consistent consequence that you and Dad are comfortable with using if the tantrum occurs and warning the child as it is starting.

(ie. I can see that you are starting to get upset. Would you like to try to talk to me about this because if you start to (bite, kick, yell, whatever) you know that you will be in time out/whatever.)

Finally recognizing that this indeed may be too much for the child (who is only 6) to handle right now. I am not saying not to address her behaviour but that it really is a lot for kids to manage and professional help may be needed.

[Tayken]

I'm the step mom (I'm not officially, but that's the bet I can offer, my fiancé has two kids from an ex wife).

Just to make it very clear, your only influence in the matter is with the parent for whom you have a relationship and the children when they reside with you and their parent every-other-weekend.

Although you are the "step mom" you are not a legal parent. This isn't to say your contributions to the children in question's health and well being isn't important. It is. Often for other caregivers to children in these types of situations it is hard to contribute to helping resolve issues for both the parent and the children that they love.

This is a very good article that may help you sort out your role in the matter:

"Stepmom’s nightmare is not her problem to solve"
by: Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

For the most, I refrain from involving myself in stuff between him and his exwife. The exception being stuff involving the kids as they are just as much in my care when they are with us (half the time they are with me alone lol just due to crazy work schedules). So I think it's important to be involved and aware of stuff going on with the kids.

I assume you mean half of the time on the every-other-weekend ("EOW") schedule? (As you mention below that the access schedule is EOW.) As well, you are not a "custodial parent" in your role. So although you can offer advice to your partner whom is not a "custodial parent" in decision making. (As you stated below.)

Here's the situation. 6 (almost 7) year old daughter throwing insane tantrums.

Presumed that this child of six years of age would be in school and possibly daycare. Have any other third party professionals (e.g. teacher) brought this issue to the attention of the parents? Is the pattern of behaviour ("insane tantrums") being observed by the child in questions by the teacher?

The reason I ask is that technically, the person whom see's the children more often than the child's parents is their teacher. They also see them interact with other children, classroom materials, and for very long periods of time. If you haven't heard from the teacher regarding the pattern of behaviour you may want to encourage your partner to contact the teacher and inquire about the child in question's behaviour in the classroom environment. As well, if there is a daycare provider or any other third party care provider you should encourage your partner to inquire with them.

The logic being is that if the pattern of behaviour you have described is truly an issue it will be evident to others and not just the parents and people with parental roles.

Both with us and when she with her mom who is the CP (we have every other weekend and one night a week, plus whenever our schedules match they come over for some extra time)

How do you know that the pattern of behaviour you have described is happening with the other parent when the child is residing with them?

When she's with us, we deal with the tantrum, it's resulted in some consequences (one time of writing lines, a time of having a new toy taken away, and the rest just acknowledging and apologizing for the behaviour. We pretty good about being clear and consistent with her and only once have we gotten frustrated or upset and had things go wrong.

Take a look at the literature that is freely available on the internet "Assertive Parenting". This is the most balanced from of "parenting style". It is also referred to as "positive parenting" in the literature too. CAS also has information posted about this parenting style online as well.

I can't say for sure how things go at her moms house, I'm not there obviously but I get the impression that that the child's behaviour is excused, and don't ever see any consequences or accountability when she does stuff.

But, you asserted earlier in your posting that the issue is happening at the other parent's house? The pattern of behaviour you are describing could very well be localized to when the children are residing with you and their parent.

Operating on assumptions is not something I would recommend with regards to the pattern of behaviour you have described. If you and your partner have a concern for the children, it should be raised with the other parent (custodial and primary residential parent). Trying to theorize on why this is happening and if it is happening at the other parent's residence isn't a great strategy for resolving the problem.

Some articles that may assist you:

Normal Childhood Behaviour Misconstrued
by: Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

In the context of high conflict separated parents, normal childhood behaviour and incidents can take on epic proportions. Otherwise normal behaviour can lead to suspicion or be used against a parent to undermine care and custody. As one parent cries foul, the other cries parental alienation syndrome. The fight is on and heats up to the point of boiling over. The child is caught in the middle and their behaviour escalates as a result. Both parents then use the child’s behaviour as evidence of their own claim against the other.

... continued ...

[Tayken]

I get the impression that her mom easily gets upset and frustrated and yells during these moments (we've found the child responds better if we talk seriously, not yell).

My advice though would be to consider these articles:

Normal Childhood Behaviour Misconstrued
by: Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

There is a quote attributed to Sigmund Freud, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”. So too of childhood behaviour and incidents; they may be simply within the range of normal childhood life. However, in the context of high conflict separated parents, the simple explanation can get transplanted with extraordinary suspicions and theories.

Don't operate on an "impression" ("suspicions and theories"). Simply have your partner ask the other parent. But, in a manner that is not accusatory and blaming. Again, this isn't about gathering "evidence" to say the pattern of behaviour is the other parent's "fault".

Also, don't meddle in the other parent's "parenting style".

When Separated Parents Meddle in Each Other’s Parenting
by: Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

Assuming no actual abusive or neglectful behaviour, butt out and leave each other alone.

It is not differences in parenting style that will necessarily hurt the child, but the ongoing conflict that ensues when one or other parent cannot resist meddling into the style and relationships of the other parent. The parental conflict is usually more destructive than the differences in parenting style.

...

The best rule is for separated parents to concentrate fully on their own house, their own parenting, their own relationship with partners, and their own relationship with their kids.

So her mom wants to take the girl to the children's mental health hospital during these tantrums. She did this once before last year, the person who talked to the child said she was fine, no real issues, and that she's a really strong willed kid. They made arrangements for her and her mom to attend some parenting thing starting in the new year. Her mom never followed through with it at that time.

Often, with children of this age it is not the child who needs the counselling but the parent. In fact, not very many, if any, mental health workers would see the child individually. Generally the issue is a problem in the parenting of the child and they are not the "problem" per-say. It could be over anxious / over protective parenting is the issue or it could be a parent who is just not involved enough. Generally, the "counselling" is for the "family" and not the "child".

So now (and here's my question). Her mom says she needs to see a therapist, that her actions and behaviour are beyond what any of us can deal with or resolve. I suggested a parenting course instead for her, to teach her to help manage, prevent and deal with these tantrums. I don't believe the child seeing a therapist will resolve the actual problem.

I agree. Often the problem is in the parenting style issues and not the child's "mental health". But, there is one challenge in your theory. You are telling the other parent its "all their fault" in your recommendation. Everyone should attend and work with a "family therapist". You, your partner, the other parent and possibly the children.

So, you may want to change the position and recommend family therapy. But, be forewarned and read this article:

"When Not To See Kids In Counselling"
By: Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW
Your Social Worker - Gary Direnfeld, MSW, RSW

It must be understood that seeing children on the basis of a one-sided request, particularly if unknown to the other parent, can actually cause more harm then good.

How do you know if a child needs a psychologist?

Well, the child went to see a professional and they said their services were not required. You may already have the answer.

I don't see the child as actually having an issue that actually really needs a psychologist. Am I wrong?

But, earlier in the posting you stated that the child in question is "throwing insane tantrums". So, the question may be are you wrong in your assumption that the pattern of behaviour is not as serious as projected? Maybe by this time in your posting you have rationalized this and come to this realization already?

How does a person decide if a kid needs that kind of help? Are there resources we can turn to? I don't have kids of my own yet, so I'm not really sure where to start looking for these kinds of answers lol.

Read the articles provided in this response. They probably can answer all of your questions.

The main thing I'm looking for is obviously the kids best interests, but based on my interactions with the mom, who comes off as a high conflict sort, I'm not convinced that its the kid who has the issue.

I caution you on using the term "best interests" without really researching what that truly means. There is a lot of underlying understanding of what defines a child's "best interests". I suggested this because you are:

1. Involved with someone whom has children with another person.

2. Basing your opinion of the other parent based on what your partner tells you and what you see when interacting with the other parent (which is probably very minimal contact - if any)

3. You are stating that the other parent is "high conflict sort". There are known patterns of behaviour for the "high conflict sort", none of these were communicated in your posting.

Really consider how you and your partner can help the child resolve the issues and try your best not to meddle in the other parent's time with the children.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[caranna]

It seems to me that you are handling this matter as best as you can, not getting overly involved yet want to protect the child's best interests. Look into free counselling services. It would be advisable to have either or both the parents to ask about these services, not yourself. The following organization should be able to help. If they can't directly place you, they would be able to refer you to the proper location(s):

Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care - Public Information - Public Health Unit Locations Menu

[Tayken]

first off for you to suggest parenting classes to the mother was overstepping the boundries. Its up to the father to talk to the mother about that. Not you.

I agree. As we don't know the context in which the recommendation was made, I don't recommend that anyone make this kind of recommendation if they are a "step parent" or the "actual parent" generally. Although it may very well be sincere it more often than not will be taken in the wrong context. No matter how gently you present the idea.

My recommendation would be to go to family therapy as a family. Both parents should be part of the "solution" and not the "problem". But, the challenge with family therapy is that it is used as a session to air old grievances and positioning to be the "better parent" or "best parent".

The realization that even after separation and divorce doesn't dissolve the "family" and just the "marriage" between the parents is often hard for most to truly realize.

There is a reason the child is having tantrums. It could deal with the feeling of the loss of control due to her parents splitting up and she is acting out. Yes you may be handling the tantrum, but not the reasons why she is having them. There is nothing wrong with the child seeing someone and finding out the root of the problem.

The only "wrong" thing would be if you are going to try and leverage the mental health worker to try and have them advocate that its "all the other parent's fault" that this is happening. If people go into family therapy and even their doctor's office with this view then the outcome for the child in question could be worse.

If the person decides that mom and kid would benefit from some sort of therapy together then so be it.

To get to this point my recommendation to the OP would be to:

1. Recommend meeting with the child's family practitioner of medicine jointly with both parents present to discuss the child's issue. (A clear agreement should be reached that the appointment is about the child and not to blame each other.)

2. Ask the child's family practitioner of medicine for a referral to their on-staff social worker. (If the FPM operates in a family health care team they have one on staff.)

3. If the social worker isn't qualified or the FPM is a sole practitioner then ask for a referral to a capable and qualified mental health worker. (Psychologist would be my recommendation and not a psychiatrist.)

4. If all else fails, seek out a psychologist qualified in family therapy, agree to the professional and seek the advice. Again, don't go in throwing stones, projecting blame and try to re-hash old arguments. The focus should be on the child.

5. If the parents do get in front of a professional who is qualified in mental health. LISTEN to the advice and recommendations given. Even if they are not what you wanted to hear. Don't try to leverage the professional as an advocate for your position or try to change "custody" and/or "access".

I know you said that someone at the childrens hospital said that there was nothing wrong with the child but how many times did they actually see and talk to the child?? Takes a while for a child to feel safe enough with a stranger for them to open up.

Again, what you described, OP, sounds like an acute care situation so SOTS point may be very relevant to consider. But, you (OP) state that you don't feel there is an issue.

It may all just boil down to parental style and differences. Which there is generally nothing you can do unless the parental style is causing emotional and/or physical harm and/or demonstrates neglect that requires intervention some how.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

It seems to me that you are handling this matter as best as you can, not getting overly involved yet want to protect the child's best interests. Look into free counselling services. It would be advisable to have either or both the parents to ask about these services, not yourself. The following organization should be able to help. If they can't directly place you, they would be able to refer you to the proper location(s):

Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care - Public Information - Public Health Unit Locations Menu

Depending who the child's current registered physician is the Public Health Units may not be able to help. The first point of contact should be the child's family practitioner of medicine. If the child is not registered with a family practitioner of medicine then a Public Health team may be able to assist in locating services. Community Health units are more geared towards other health care needs.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[SadAndTired]

Although the information is great Tayken, copied and paste into a Word document, your responses span 11 pages and over 2,600 words. Many parents are really busy. Hopefully the OP will have time to read it all.

[Tayken]

Although the information is great Tayken, copied and paste into a Word document, your responses span 11 pages and over 2,600 words. Many parents are really busy. Hopefully the OP will have time to read it all.

My hypothesis is that if they don't take the time they really are not looking for a solution and just possibly looking for someone to tell them that the other parent is "all bad" and that they are the "better parent".

If the children are important, I am of the theory that the person in question, will actually spend the time and invest in resolving the problem and not look for a "quick win" solution.

A prime example of a contributor to this site who does this quite often is WorkingDad, FaithAndMorals, Baldclub, Roie, PH, SOTS, etc... All in much better positions in their matters as a result I assume.

We can agree do disagree on that I guess. More information is always better than less is my theory. Also, providing researched materials that rely on the principals of evidence based medicine is always better than a "personal opinion".

Give the poster as much information to assist them in resolving the problem. Have them explore not just the opinion of a random person on the internet but, one that is supported with expert opinion attached. Especially one that appears quite regularly in the matters of custody and access disputes.

I find this lends more weight to the information provided rather than it coming from an anonymous poster at times.

Also, if you disagree with the content please do feel free to respond and provide a supporting argument counter to the information provided. Not sure how "length" should be an issue or is even an issue. Especially when responding to a poster who asked a lot of questions and requested help and information?

Good Luck!
Tayken

[standing on the sidelines]

Although the information is great Tayken, copied and paste into a Word document, your responses span 11 pages and over 2,600 words. Many parents are really busy. Hopefully the OP will have time to read it all.

OP is the step parent and her partner got the EOW screwjob. Not sure if the OP has any kids of her own. If she really cares about helping the child then she will take the time to read what Tayken posted as that is what people who are looking for solutions do. They research and research and then research some more.

[SadAndTired]

I am not trying to start a fight. Just commenting on the facts. Many may not have time for an 11 page document......

And the very first line of her post says:

So I'm kinda looking for more of a parents perspective on this issue here lol.

I think that posters do come here for the opinions of others. I think there is value is simply asking "Hey, what would you do?" and hearing the perspective of other people who are going through the same thing. If she only wanted professional advice, she certainly could have just consulted professionals.

I certainly have learned a ton of strategies and information from the "non-professional" posts of people here, most of whom did not back up anything with expert opinion from other places in the web.

Anyway, really not trying to engage in a fight and will bow out now.

I hope it works out Wintermcd.

[Tayken]

I think that posters do come here for the opinions of others. I think there is value is simply asking "Hey, what would you do?" and hearing the perspective of other people who are going through the same thing. If she only wanted professional advice, she certainly could have just consulted professionals.

How did I not address this in my posting though which is the real question. Is it that you "feel" I shouldn't be contributing because you "feel" that I am not one of the "other people who are going through the same thing"?

I am not a professional nor do I represent myself to be. The poster, if you read their original posting, requested advice. Advice was given. You don't like my advice then counter it with better advice.

You may want to discredit the advice given because it is from a professional. You may actually not like the professional's opinion that I cited. But, trying to discredit the advice purely on the fact that I leveraged advice from a professional and that I am clearly someone whom you have strong feelings against, really isn't benefiting this thread. It is in fact hijacking it in my personal opinion.

If you have something valuable to contribute please do so. I encourage you to provide your "parental perspective". Who is not to say that I am not a parent? If I am not does it make the advice I provided less valuable to anyone other than yourself?

I think SOTS addressed your concerns rather clearly already.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[SadAndTired]

Tayken, go back and read my original reply to you. I did not hijjack.

I simply said that your post had great information but was really long. That was it.

You replied with another lengthy post and SOS chimed in. I never said your post wasn't good, relevant or appropriate. I think you have hijacked this into something else, defending yourself against some imagined wrong.

My second reply was only addressing the fact that you said this:

Also, providing researched materials that rely on the principals of evidence based medicine is always better than a "personal opinion".

.

I just said that opinion is important too. I've learned a lot from other's opinions here.

I never said your post was inappropriate.

I said I was bowing out and I really am now. Just wanted to redirect you to my original comment as it has been blown out of proportion.

[Tayken]

Tayken, go back and read my original reply to you. I did not hijjack.

I simply said that your post had great information but was really long. That was it.

What purpose did your comment that my posting was "really long" serve the original poster? You could have sent this comment via private message. It really served no purpose to this thread or to the OP.

I think you have hijacked this into something else, defending yourself against some imagined wrong.

You can feel this all you want. It simply isn't true. When you start to accept this fact then maybe time won't be wasted on such irrelevant matters.

I still don't see the relevance of your initial response to the information provided other than it was "long". Not sure what value it has to the original poster and others who come across this thread seeking similar advice.

Good Luck!
Tayken