CanLII & Teens

[crosbyfan]

Hi - I'm a long time reader and first time poster.

A quick overview of the situation;

My husband and his ex have been divorced for 10+ years. It was an acrimonious split, with numerous contempt charges, appeals, motions etc. He and his ex have joint custody, with primary residence with my husband. The ex used to see the kids EOW, though that has fallen off as they have become older (the ex lives three hours away, she was the one that moved).

The kids are now 16 & 18.

The 18 year old used my computer one day and found the CanLII site saved on my favourites. Both kids have their own computers and since their computers are newer, they never use mine, but this one time he was too lazy to boot up his own.

Through the site he found his parent's court cases - there are 4 on CanLII

The judges in all the cases were pretty scathing about their mother. Two judges outright called her a liar.

The 18 year old found out his mom doesn't pay child support or sec 7. She has big time arrears, has lost her license, lost her passport and has been threatened with jail. The mom owes a great deal in court costs also.

The mom did some pretty nasty things to my husband that are documented in the court cases.

The 18 year old, showed the site and cases to the 16 year old.

Neither child will now speak with their mom. Their mom of course is screaming Parental Alienation. Threatening to take us back to court (she loves the conflict, never pays court costs and self reps)

My husband has always taken the high road (as have I), and has never said much about mom and the issues. Fortunately we're in a financial position that the lack of CS and Sec 7 has not impacted the kids.

Short of having the 18 year old swear an affidavit, which we really don't want to do ... does anyone have suggestions how to resolve this?

[Frustrated_DAD]

I think you are both posting on this site - see alienator_witness:

Posted: 01-14-2013, 01:11 AM

Title: New here - parental alienation

[crosbyfan]

Thanks Frustrated _Dad -

It is similar, but not the same case (though I do see where it would appear so). We've never gone after his ex for the arrears of child support. It's been the ex that has brought the cases forward with regards to stock options and spousal support.

[Tayken]

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...enation-14080/

I could have never predicted this happening where by both parties to a litigation come to this site to post and request assistance.

My recommendation is for both these posters to read their "stories" and then compare it to the publicly posted case law and demonstrate who is not being truthful in their posting to this site.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[crosbyfan]

I'm pretty sure this isn't the other party who's posting

My husband's ex is single. She has been quite adamant about that fact. The other posting is written by the partner/husband.

My husband's ex is quite healthy. In the other posting there seems to be some extreme illness involved

Perhaps it is the same case and she's trying to gain support in some way? Though I personally think it's another situation altogether.

[Tayken]

Thanks Frustrated _Dad -

It is similar, but not the same case (though I do see where it would appear so). We've never gone after his ex for the arrears of child support. It's been the ex that has brought the cases forward with regards to stock options and spousal support.

Note, that highly conflicted people often get the story backwards.

"It's All Your Fault!" - Working With High Conflict Personalities by William A. Eddy, LCSW, JD

Getting it Backwards

Negative Advocates are those family, friends, mental health professionals, and legal professionals who are trying to help, but get it backwards – they adopt or agree with the High Conflict Personality’s backwards thinking. They become persuaded – especially by Cluster B Persuasive Blamers (HCPs) – to focus all of their attention on other people’s alleged misbehavior. They help the HCP to avoid responsibility and to hold others responsible for their own problems and behavior. They agree with and advocate for the High Conflict Personality’s cognitive distortions: their all-or-nothing thinking, emotional reasoning, personalizing events, exaggerating minor (or nonexistent) events and minimizing their own major misbehaviors. Negative Advocates help High Conflict Personalities stay stuck.

Negative Advocates appear to absorb the high intensity emotions of the HCP and often enhance them to a higher level of urgency – they amplify their distorted thinking and join in generating “Emotional Facts.” They have adopted the HCP’s process of emotional reasoning. If family, friends, and professionals would become more skeptical and avoid becoming Negative Advocates, High Conflict disputes would significantly reduce their presence in our legal system.

Be very mindful that elements of the story are being communicated by another party and not the person directly involved in the matter.

Just fair warning to you so you don't generate evidence against yourself that will be attached to any future proceeding before the court.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[crosbyfan]

Thanks Tayken - I haven't written anything that I couldn't stand behind in court. My real concern is keeping the kids out of any potential legal issues.

[Tayken]

Thanks Tayken - I haven't written anything that I couldn't stand behind in court. My real concern is keeping the kids out of any potential legal issues.

I will address this shortly. Be very mindful of what you write, the tone of voice you use, and you may want to contain the exposure of personal information as this site is indexed by Google and easily found at times.

[DowntroddenDad]

It is in the best interests of the children that they try and maintain some kind of relationship with their mother.

It is the role of the custodial parents to do whatever they can to encourage that relationship.

This is a difficult situation. I'm sure you want to empathize with the children, it is only natural. But you need to rise above it. You should encourage the children to look to their mother today and try and rebuild a relationship. What is done is done, and can't be undone. Having said that timing is everything, and you and your spouse have to find the right moment to have that talk.

Take the high road and stay on it. Model the kind of behaviour you would like those kids to exhibit when they have kids.

[crosbyfan]

You're right DowntroddenDad - it is in their best interests that have a relationship with their mom.

We've had one talk with them about bygones being bygones etc. Unfortunately teens often see things in black and white, right and wrong - they don't see the shades of gray that often makes up life. We'll just have to keep trying.

CanLII is a fantastic site when researching case law. It can be devastating to the children involved in divorce to see the whole sordid case law in black and white. Parents should be warned when they start fighting in court, if they want their kids to see what they did someday.

[Tayken]

My husband and his ex have been divorced for 10+ years. It was an acrimonious split, with numerous contempt charges, appeals, motions etc. He and his ex have joint custody, with primary residence with my husband. The ex used to see the kids EOW, though that has fallen off as they have become older (the ex lives three hours away, she was the one that moved).

Your partner, the primary residential parent, should be encouraging the children, even at the ages provided, to have regular access with the other parent. Although they are of an age that a court WILL hear their opinions and they may express this you and your partner should always be positive and encourage them to visit with their mother.

Please read this thread and attached publicly posted case law for more guidance:

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...ntinued-13955/

Justice Mossip in Reeves v. Reeves in paragraph 38 states:

Based on a significant number of studies and case law in this area, any support or encouragement by one parent that the children not have a relationship with the other parent simply demonstrated the irresponsibility of the parent who has the children and demonstrates that parent's inability to act in the best interests of their children. Children do not always want to go to school or want to go to the dentist's or doctor's. It is the responsibility of good parents to manage their children's health and safety issues without necessarily the consent or joy of their children. A healthy relationship with both parents is a health and safety issue that good parents ensure takes place.

It isn't just "encouragement" that you and your partner should be setting forward that the children spend time with and visit with their mother but, an expectation that they will do this as much as possible. Hard to do with older children but, be mindful of how communications with (and about) the other parent may be reflected in a matter before the court.

The kids are now 16 & 18.

Now, 16 is a very mature age and the court will hear both children on the matter but, the question is how to do this should the matter go to court.

The 18 year old used my computer one day and found the CanLII site saved on my favourites. Both kids have their own computers and since their computers are newer, they never use mine, but this one time he was too lazy to boot up his own.

This unfortunately doesn't surprise me. Many children in their adult years will seek out the information regarding the family's break down. As someone decided to bring the matter to a public dispute resolution where this information is public information and by law shared publicly you and your partner are not at fault for them discovering this information.

They could have simply gone there themselves, having seen this site, or anything related to CanLII (even a Globe and Mail article where case law is cited) and discovered that they could find these publicly posted materials.

I have read clinical papers about children who have actually gone to the court house and ordered copies of the entire court records to their parent's divorce. The court should really, in any custody and access dispute, put a publication ban in place and in fact, only use initials in the posted case law.

We are only going to see more of this in the future and especially with the large numbers of family situations ending up in separation and divorce.

Through the site he found his parent's court cases - there are 4 on CanLII

No doubt they have read all four. This is where the "domestic violence" advocates and their "privacy" allegations and "control" fail in my honest opinion. (General comment to those contributors and readers.) When you go to the public court system you make the matter of your dispute a public matter. Your personal lives go out the window when you go to the court on Application. More importantly the children involved in the matter may one day find the information themselves.

The judges in all the cases were pretty scathing about their mother. Two judges outright called her a liar.

It must be devastating for any child, of any age, to read a court decision for which this happens. I would recommend that the children be told that if they need to speak to someone you and your partner will make all the necessary arrangements for them and notify the other parent and seek their consent for this if the children are in need of therapeutic support.

In fact, I would strongly recommend that this be discussed and that maybe family therapy would be the most appropriate. Also, the conduct may all be in the past and not repeated since the court documentation. If this is the case, it should be explained gently to the children that is the past, and that they have to rely upon their experiences as children to that parent and not to judge either parent on what is contained in the court records.

The 18 year old found out his mom doesn't pay child support or sec 7. She has big time arrears, has lost her license, lost her passport and has been threatened with jail. The mom owes a great deal in court costs also.

Again, does the other parent love the children? That is the most important thing honestly and what you should re-direct the children involved in on focusing on. I am sure they have a good life with you and your partner, have enjoyed the time they spend with their mom. Have them focus on positive aspects of their relationship and not aspects of a court order that they were not a party to, were at an age that they didn't know about it and to the best of their ability focus on all the good aspects of their mother and father.

The mom did some pretty nasty things to my husband that are documented in the court cases.

But, is that all in the past? If so, leave it there and ask the children to do that too. Focus on the now and the future relationship both parents should have. Not the past conduct of the other parent.

The 18 year old, showed the site and cases to the 16 year old.

Neither child will now speak with their mom. Their mom of course is screaming Parental Alienation. Threatening to take us back to court (she loves the conflict, never pays court costs and self reps)

If this truly is the case, I would recommend that you offer to settle the matter by attending family therapy.

Read this:

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...-mossip-13753/

It is not someone else telling us we are “wrong” in our memory that gives us insight; it is our own reflecting, with professional assistance, that leads us to that level of awareness and understanding about ourselves.

To that quote, I would add the understanding that despite the parental conflict that both parents love the children and their conduct is not reflective probably of their love for the children but, a conflict between two adults at that time.

My husband has always taken the high road (as have I), and has never said much about mom and the issues. Fortunately we're in a financial position that the lack of CS and Sec 7 has not impacted the kids.

Continue to take this high road and read the second link I provided. It will hopefully give you some insight in how to handle the situation and what a justice may possibly order in a matter like this.

Don't engage in the conflict, but seek out solutions to the problems. Family Therapy would probably be the best in my opinion. Court won't solve anything and will only make the situation WORSE.

Short of having the 18 year old swear an affidavit, which we really don't want to do ... does anyone have suggestions how to resolve this?

Option 1:

Ignore it. Not a good idea as those who are often ignored go to court for attention.

Option 2:

Change the custody and access order on a material change in circumstance. Would be a waste of time possibly for a 16 year old and 18 year old. But, I would not recommend arguing less access to the other parent.

Option 3:

Family Therapy. This is hard and painful for everyone involved but, if you are looking to solve problems... This may be the best avenue to go down. Also, the most private and safe for the children involved (emotionally safe).

Good Luck!
Tayken

[OrleansLawyer]

does anyone have suggestions how to resolve this?

Counselling for both children with expenses split between the parents may be prudent.

The adult child found publicly available information. They showed it with their minor sibling. Both children are sixteen or older and have made a conscious choice to withdraw from their mother. While sad, and likely emotionally damaging to everyone involved, there is little in the way of remedy available to the mother.

Offering the counselling, with the children on board, may assuage the hurt the children are feeling and mitigate the costs of further litigation. Otherwise, you may wish to ignore the mother.

If she brings a motion to change, the children are old enough to vote with their feet regardless of the feelings of their parents. If the publicly available information on CanLII is the cause of their alienation and said alienation is justified then the mother would be likely to fail in any effort to reduce child support on those grounds.

[Tayken]

Counselling for both children with expenses split between the parents may be prudent.

As always, OrleansLawyer is awesome.

The adult child found publicly available information. They showed it with their minor sibling. Both children are sixteen or older and have made a conscious choice to withdraw from their mother. While sad, and likely emotionally damaging to everyone involved, there is little in the way of remedy available to the mother.

Well, hopfully the other parent doesn't try to self-remedy (read: "save" themselves) by taking the matter unnecessarily to court. (per your comments below) This would only in my opinion, make the situation even more difficult (emotionally) for the children involved. Hopefully, the other parent understands this.

Offering the counselling, with the children on board, may assuage the hurt the children are feeling and mitigate the costs of further litigation. Otherwise, you may wish to ignore the mother.

Ignorance can be bliss but, if there are 4 posted decisions, it doesn't sound like the strategy of "ignorance" may be prudent. Having not reviewed the case law suggested I am just throwing darts at a board. This does "sound" high-conflict where one (or both) parties are heavily engaged in a negative pattern of behaviour trying to disprove (or have criminally charged) the other parent and "win" custody. But, that was 11 years ago from the sounds of it.

If she brings a motion to change, the children are old enough to vote with their feet regardless of the feelings of their parents. If the publicly available information on CanLII is the cause of their alienation and said alienation is justified then the mother would be likely to fail in any effort to reduce child support on those grounds.

The worst part is that OrleansLawyer is correct and costs will be ordered against the other parent only making the situation worse for them. It will also further damage what little, if any relationship the children have with the other parent. No family ever comes out of Family Court feeling better about themselves.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[DowntroddenDad]

I lived through some of that on the receiving end. My ex did not take the high road. She was very adept at telling one side of the story. But my kids are coming around. The more they see me, the more they realize I'm human, and they appreciate the fact I don't say anything about the separation, divorce in their presence, but instead focus on being together.

Your road is harder, granted.

[OrleansLawyer]

it doesn't sound like the strategy of "ignorance" may be prudent.

A better suggestion would be to not allow the threats of litigation by the mother to impact the lives of the OP, instead of to ignore the mother. People can saber rattle until the cows come home, and often will. If you are safe behind thick walls you don't need to fear the wolves howling at the gate.

It will also further damage what little, if any relationship the children have with the other parent. No family ever comes out of Family Court feeling better about themselves.

Too true, unfortunately.

costs will be ordered against the other parent

A request that costs for the action are posted may be financially advantageous and deter further litigation.